Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,221 Year: 5,478/9,624 Month: 503/323 Week: 143/204 Day: 13/4 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1558 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 397 (721287)
03-06-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by AZPaul3
03-06-2014 9:07 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Gee that sounds so reasonable in a twisted sort of way. Call it "discrimination" -- such as a person's conscience against gay marriage -- and you can vilify anyone or anything these days. You are in fact expressing a really weird bigotry of your own that never existed in America or on this planet until recent decades. If one had the luxury of musing on these things I'm sure it would be very interesting to trace the source of this bizarre attitude.
So let me get this straight: Nobody is allowed to refuse to make a wedding cake or take wedding photos for a gay wedding ceremony.
Got it. That's been thoroughly established on this thread. So now whenever somebody does refuse service on such grounds you can run them out of business, reduce them to begging on the streets, or whatever your little heart thinks such "discrimination" deserves.
What would you suggest?
ABE How about forcing them to watch the most obscene gay parade imaginable? You know, consciousness-raising, or re-education as the communists used to call it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 9:07 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 03-06-2014 10:46 AM Faith has replied
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2014 12:32 PM Faith has replied
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 03-06-2014 1:57 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 255 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 2:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 259 by dronestar, posted 03-06-2014 3:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 242 of 397 (721289)
03-06-2014 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Taq
03-05-2014 11:36 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I think this is a really valid point. Even taking the pictures or baking the cake for the ceremony, the individual can believe that the commitment ceremony is wrong and sinful...
I think this is a really good article explaining the decision that this law was supposed to be a preemptive strike against in Arizona. It discusses how, while the idea of discriminating against a minority class in a business operated in the public sector is abhorrent, we must have empathy for those who are pushed into this position because they are actually acting on sincerely held beliefs, just how those who were against inter-racial marriage had sincerely held beliefs against that type of marriage. It is a long process to change the hearts and minds of a population and decisions like this, while beneficial to society as a whole, do hurt the individuals who are feeling oppressed. It was an interesting take and one I would like to hear some opinions on, including yours Faith.
The New Mexico Supreme Court Applies Anti-Discrimination Law

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Taq, posted 03-05-2014 11:36 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 10:57 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:43 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1397 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 243 of 397 (721291)
03-06-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
03-06-2014 8:42 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
So you have to allow us to refuse service on the grounds of conscience
I'm pretty sure a racist or sexist could and would claim that serving a non-white or a women goes against their conscience.
Should they be allowed to refuse service?
although I see you've already been asked this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 8:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:44 PM Heathen has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 244 of 397 (721292)
03-06-2014 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
03-06-2014 7:15 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
The right to refuse service for any reason, however, IS a right, one that you apparently don't support.
If you own a business, put up a sign that says, "We serve whites only," and see if what you claim is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 7:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 245 of 397 (721293)
03-06-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
03-06-2014 9:20 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Call it "discrimination" -- such as a person's conscience against gay marriage -- and you can vilify anyone or anything these days.
We aren't talking about your conscience. We are talking about you refusing service to fellow human beings.
You are in fact expressing a really weird bigotry of your own that never existed in America or on this planet until recent decades.
So by forcing white business owners to treat blacks equally, we were discriminating against white business owners?
Nobody is allowed to refuse to make a wedding cake or take wedding photos for a gay wedding ceremony.
In many states, you are allowed to refuse service on that basis since LGBT is not a protected group in those states. However, laws are quickly changing which is why some states, like Arizona, are trying to get ahead of the curve before these groups are expected to be treated equally.
Are you really asking us why businesses should treat everyone equally? I would expect that you would consider that to be the moral thing to do, but I guess not.
Got it. That's been thoroughly established on this thread. So now whenever somebody does refuse service on such grounds you can run them out of business, reduce them to begging on the streets, or whatever your little heart thinks such "discrimination" deserves.
What do you think happened when segregation ended in the South.
How about forcing them to watch the most obscene gay parade imaginable? You know, consciousness-raising, or re-education as the communists used to call it.
Requiring your business to treat all americans equally is not the same as forcing someone to watch a parade in their free time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 9:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 11:00 AM Taq has replied
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:46 PM Taq has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 526 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 246 of 397 (721295)
03-06-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
03-06-2014 7:15 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Faith writes:
The right to refuse service for any reason, however, IS a right, one that you apparently don't support.
I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 7:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 247 of 397 (721296)
03-06-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-06-2014 10:07 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
From the minority opinion:
quote:
Nonetheless, as the concurrence explains, that right to stay out of things, in the manner that plaintiff seeks, in a context in which a business otherwise operates as a public accommodation, is simply too harmful to the excluded parties to be tolerable
This essentially the reasoning behind Brown vs. Board of education, and is, in my mind, the reason for choosing sides in this battle of rights.
Because there is no question in my mind that the New Mexico Supreme Court decision does put limits on the First Amendment Rights of faux Christians. But the state sanctioned discrimination that results from taking the opposite path is far more harmful to society.
And I don't expect the aggrieved haters to accept that truth any more than did Lester Maddox, the Georgia Governor who defended his restaurant against desegregation by passing out ax handles to his patrons.
No, I don't have nearly the empathy some suggest we ought to feel for "the sincerely held beliefs" of those who were against inter-racial marriage. Sorry, but that idea is just plain repulsive to me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-06-2014 10:07 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 397 (721297)
03-06-2014 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Taq
03-06-2014 10:46 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
In many states, you are allowed to refuse service on that basis since LGBT is not a protected group in those states. However, laws are quickly changing which is why some states, like Arizona, are trying to get ahead of the curve before these groups are expected to be treated equally.
It was probably legal to do so in AZ before this attempt to enshrine discrimination into law occurred, and I'm not so sure it isn't legal despite the veto.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Taq, posted 03-06-2014 10:46 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Taq, posted 03-06-2014 12:26 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 252 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-06-2014 1:03 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9366
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 249 of 397 (721300)
03-06-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
03-06-2014 7:15 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
The right to refuse service for any reason, however, IS a right, one that you apparently don't support.
Where is this right of which you speak granted? I do not see the tight to refuse service anywhere. Not in Constitution or Bill of Rights or any state constitution.
There is no right to refuse service.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 7:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 2:26 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:48 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 250 of 397 (721301)
03-06-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NoNukes
03-06-2014 11:00 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
It was probably legal to do so in AZ before this attempt to enshrine discrimination into law occurred, and I'm not so sure it isn't legal despite the veto.
In my own state of Idaho there is a push to include LGBT as a protected group under state law, the "Add the Words" campaign. Currently, they are not protected. In Idaho, you can refuse to employ someone because of their LGBT status without facing legal retribution. Like AZ, ID legislators are trying to enact a law that would protect licensed businesses from losing those licenses if they discriminate against the LGBT community. It is pretty clear that they are trying to pre-emptively protect those who discriminate before the LGBT community is given equality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 11:00 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 251 of 397 (721303)
03-06-2014 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
03-06-2014 9:20 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Faith writes:
So let me get this straight: Nobody is allowed to refuse to make a wedding cake or take wedding photos for a gay wedding ceremony.
Of course they can refuse, they will obviously be fully booked on the day that the service is required.
Or would they prefer to be martyrs?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 9:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Taq, posted 03-06-2014 1:22 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:50 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 252 of 397 (721307)
03-06-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NoNukes
03-06-2014 11:00 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
NoNukes writes:
It was probably legal to do so in AZ before this attempt to enshrine discrimination into law occurred, and I'm not so sure it isn't legal despite the veto.
Yes, you have this correct. This is the biggest idiocy involved in the passing of that law in this state. It is fully legal in Arizona to discriminate based upon sexual orientation because LGBT is not considered a protected group in our state. This is why Jan Brewer mentioned that she did not see the pressing needs of adding this law, which was so open-ended it could have added even more discrimination against other groups. Her decision to veto didn't have to do with protecting the LGBT community from discrimination, but rather from the discriminatory backlash that could be brought about by the law.
Properly, Arizona needs to get some more progressive people involved in the legislative branch and begin to move forward, removing all the discriminatory laws we have on the books. One funny thing that holds us back is that pay for State legislators is determined by popular vote, which means not many people want the gig of being a legislator because it pays less than 30,000 dollars a year in my state (our voters notoriously vote pay raises down, I think the last one was 82% opposed). I believe, and don't hold me to exact numbers, that they currently make a little over 27,000 dollars.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 11:00 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 253 of 397 (721310)
03-06-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Tangle
03-06-2014 12:32 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Of course they can refuse, they will obviously be fully booked on the day that the service is required.
That is exactly how it would work out in the real world. Most business owners aren't that stupid. They will simply say that they can't take on any new clients at this time. They won't say, "Eww, your icky gay, I won't help you".
On the flip side, non-discriminating business owners will have their names passed on by word of mouth within the LGBT community. In the end, no one wants to have a wedding photographer that doesn't want to be at the wedding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2014 12:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1519 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 397 (721313)
03-06-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
03-06-2014 9:20 AM


an acid test for discrination against Christians
Fred Phelps is not prevented by law from expressing his views.
So Christians are not prevented by law from expressing their views.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 9:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 255 of 397 (721315)
03-06-2014 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
03-06-2014 9:20 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
Call it "discrimination" -- such as a person's conscience against gay marriage ...
Not their conscience, Faith. They can keep that all they want. Bigoted action is the issue. You may want to call it a fine line but we know you here, Faith. We know you understand the difference.
It doesn't matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth you do. You cannot take your actions of bigotry and hatred into the marketplace.
Just like you cannot take hateful bigoted action by denying rights and services based on race, sex, age, disability or religion, society is now adding sexual orientation to that list.
I think the message is clear. Taking hateful bigoted actions against anyone is not going to be looked upon kindly by our free secular society.
Some people who, through nature or nurture, have defective brains twisted in hate, like skinheads and those westboro baptist freaks, really love to hate people for flimsy reasons. But, for a normal, feeling, human being with any sense of empathy and compassion for the human condition, I would think that if your Jesus required you to hate anyone, that would be a good reason to quit and leave that cult behind, wouldn't you?
Or are you condoning hatred and bigotry in society?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 9:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024