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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 316 of 397 (721387)
03-06-2014 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:45 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
I judge you only by what you've written publically on EvC forum.
Your misguided understanding of what I have said or written about. Again, you have no clue who I am or my background.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:55 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:59 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 317 of 397 (721388)
03-06-2014 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 10:44 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
God doesn't use big numbers of people. Consider the story of Gideon, whose army God pared down to a very few. Consider the concept of "the remnant" throughout the Old Testament: the masses were not God's people, only the Remnant were God's people.
However, it is in fairly recent times that the apostasy which includes belief in evolution, acceptance of homosexuality as a normal alternative lifestyle and other deviant beliefs, turned the main denominations away from the truth, leaving a relative few Bible believers who are the remnant of today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 10:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 318 of 397 (721390)
03-06-2014 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 10:51 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
You've judged me pretty viciously based on what I've written here, DA, yet you complain that I judge you on what you've written?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 10:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 10:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 319 of 397 (721391)
03-06-2014 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 10:51 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
My "misguided understanding" of what you're written? Did you or did you not write that you support the theory of evolution, which I just pointed out violates some basic scriptural revelation about the entrance of death into the world? Did you or did you not excoriate me for rejecting homosexuality as sin, which is clearly spelled out in scripture? Did you or did you not call it a failure of Christian love to call sin sin?
Own up to what you've said here. I haven't misunderstood you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 10:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:02 PM Faith has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 320 of 397 (721392)
03-06-2014 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:55 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
You've judged me pretty viciously based on what I've written here, DA, yet you complain that I judge you on what you've written?
Yes, I have. I am showing you that if you judge you too will be judged.
I am not going to get steamrolled by you without pointing out the plank in your own eye.
Typically I don't do this. But you really deserved to be shown that you are no more righteous than anyone else. Christians sin just like everyone else. The difference is how we act. And we both probably acted less than Christlike I admit and I apologize.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 321 of 397 (721393)
03-06-2014 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:59 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
en? Did you or did you not write that you support the theory of evolution, which I just pointed out violates some basic scriptural revelation about the entrance of death into the world?
I do support the TOE. However, I do not see any conflict with scripture.
And the death you mention is talking about spiritual death.
Did you or did you not excoriate me for rejecting homosexuality as sin, which is clearly spelled out in scripture?
No, I excoriated you for your hypocrisy in how homosexuals are treated by the law. I never excoriated you about homosexuality being a sin.
Own up to what you've said here. I haven't misunderstood you.
Yes, yes you have.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:23 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 322 of 397 (721394)
03-06-2014 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:54 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
God doesn't use big numbers of people. Consider the story of Gideon, whose army God pared down to a very few. Consider the concept of "the remnant" throughout the Old Testament: the masses were not God's people, only the Remnant were God's people.
You are the one who initially brought up big numbers.
Faith writes:
Not only "says me" but says all the Bible believers I know and read and follow, thousands of them DA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:13 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 323 of 397 (721396)
03-06-2014 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 10:50 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Spiritual death entered through one man, Adam.
Typical liberal emphasis, DA. Yes it started with spiritual death, as the first thing that happened was that they lost communion with God through their spirits. But did Adam die a physical death or not? Of course he did, and that's what the NT is referring to. Real death, the real death Jesus died on the cross, which He wouldn't have needed to die if real death had not been the legacy of sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 10:50 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 324 of 397 (721397)
03-06-2014 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 11:04 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Yes I mentioned the thousands who share my beliefs, because you were trying to reduce my beliefs to me alone. No, I learned them from Bible believers down the centuries and share them with the thousands I mentioned who are true to the Bible today, which are no doubt really hundreds of thousands or maybe millions. I hope so anyway. In any case I am not at all alone in my beliefs, far from it.
But if you are going to start competing over numbers then you need to recognize that numbers aren't of interest to God, He prefers the Remnant.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:04 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 325 of 397 (721398)
03-06-2014 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 11:02 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
No, I excoriated you for your hypocrisy in how homosexuals are treated by the law. I never excoriated you about homosexuality being a sin.
Excoriating me for defending the right of Christians to refuse to in any way support gay marriage is perhaps more accurate then, since you are into splitting hairs.
Obviously you think it's OK for society to embrace gay marriage? Am I wrong about that? Correct me if so but your general trend of argument does suggest otherwise. And if you actually think that gay marriage is OK with Jesus Christ and doesn't violate the Bible and should be supported by law you clearly do not understand Jesus' own references to God's ordination of marriage as between one man and one woman.
You also don't understand that Jesus IS Jehovah, who inspired Leviticus which lays out the sin of homosexuality and the punishment for it that God decrees.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 326 of 397 (721402)
03-06-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:11 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Typical liberal emphasis, DA.
How is this liberal?? And what does that mean in the context of the Bible?
Yes it started with spiritual death, as the first thing that happened was that they lost communion with God through their spirits. But did Adam die a physical death or not? Of course he did, and that's what the NT is referring to.
Lets look at this in context.
Romans 5:12 writes:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
Adam sinned, and because he sinned he immediately died spiritually.
God said in the Garden of Eden:
Genesis 2:16-17 writes:
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Was he talking about a physical or spiritual death? He was saying both. First he died spiritually immediately after eating the fruit, and then he later died physically.
Paul also says here
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
He is talking below of spiritual death not physical death. Not all creatures are made alive physically by Christ.
I Corinthians 15:21 writes:
Real death, the real death Jesus died on the cross, which He wouldn't have needed to die if real death had not been the legacy of sin.
Paul is talking about spiritual death in both contexts of Romans and I Corinthians in regards to Adam who is a type (a foreshadowing) of Jesus.
Spiritual death is the reason he died on the Christ. He restored aka redeemed humanity from spiritual death not physical death. He allowed the division between God and man by way of spiritual death to be restored.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:45 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 327 of 397 (721403)
03-06-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:23 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Excoriating me for defending the right of Christians to refuse to in any way support gay marriage is perhaps more accurate then, since you are into splitting hairs.
So do you support store owners who refuse to serve homosexuals, how about doctors or nurses? How about teachers? If they saw two homosexuals holding hands or kissing should Paramedics or EMTs refuse emergency services? See where this is going?
Obviously you think it's OK for society to embrace gay marriage?
Drawing conclusions I never stated. No, I do not embrace gay marriage. Providing equal treatment under the law is not the same as endorsing or embracing a sin. People having premarital sex are treated equally under the law yet no one is in an uproar over providing them services.
Correct me if so but your general trend of argument does suggest otherwise.
No, it doesn't.
And if you actually think that gay marriage is OK with Jesus Christ and doesn't violate the Bible and should be supported by law you clearly do not understand Jesus' own references to God's ordination of marriage as between one man and one woman.
Again, I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth.
You also don't understand that Jesus IS Jehovah, who inspired Leviticus which lays out the sin of homosexuality and the punishment for it that God decrees.
We are under a new covenant. The old does not apply. Or else you are sinning by not keeping the hundreds of other laws laid out in the Pentateuch.
Hebrews 8:6,13 writes:
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenantd of which he is mediatore is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises... By calling this covenant new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3179 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 328 of 397 (721404)
03-06-2014 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:13 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Yes I mentioned the thousands who share my beliefs, because you were trying to reduce my beliefs to me alone.
I never said that. I know many out there that believe as you. In fact, some are in my family.
No, I learned them from Bible believers down the centuries and share them with the thousands I mentioned who are true to the Bible today, which are no doubt really hundreds of thousands or maybe millions.
As I have as well.
But if you are going to start competing over numbers then you need to recognize that numbers aren't of interest to God, He prefers the Remnant.
I was not trying to compete. I was showing you that many do not believe as you, yet are Godly Christians.
The Westboro Church, Jehovah's Witness and many other sects also believe they are the Remnant. Just because you say you are the "Remnant", does not make you the Remnant or any more Christlike. The Remnant are those who follow Christ. Period. God does not say how big this remnant is.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 329 of 397 (721405)
03-06-2014 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 11:31 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Paul is talking about spiritual death in both contexts of Romans and I Corinthians in regards to Adam who is a type (a foreshadowing) of Jesus.
Spiritual death is the reason he died on the Christ. He restored aka redeemed humanity from spiritual death not physical death. He allowed the division between God and man by way of spiritual death to be restored.
That's only part of it, DA. Did He rise from the dead, from physical death? That is, was His resurrection a reality or not? Did He appear to His apostles in His resurrected physical body, risen from PHYSICAL death? Are we not told in Romans 5:9 that we are saved by His shed blood? Real shed blood? Real death? No, the death that entered the world with Adam was not only spiritual death but the death of the body. There is not one without the other. It is not mere spiritual life that Jesus' death gives us but real eternal life that includes the resurrection of our bodies. Which we need because the body died due to sin. There is no death without sin, as scripture also says, and that means physical death. The wages of sin is death. Real death.
You really have been given a lot of liberal apostate misinterpretation of the Bible. Let me assure you that although there are plenty of apostates who share such nonsense with you, that there are plenty of traditional Bible believers who don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 330 of 397 (721406)
03-06-2014 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by DevilsAdvocate
03-06-2014 11:45 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
It would be nice if you would comment in context instead of switching around. Who cares what Westboro and the JWs think? I'm speaking in a very specific context in response to very specific things YOU have said.
And you DID imply that I'm somehow alone in my beliefs or I wouldn't have bothered trying to answer you.
I have no idea how apostate a person can be and still be considered Christian or "godly" but I wouldn't want to push the envelope myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-06-2014 11:45 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:08 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 333 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:09 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 334 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
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