Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,565 Year: 4,822/9,624 Month: 170/427 Week: 83/85 Day: 0/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 331 of 397 (721409)
03-07-2014 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:45 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
That's only part of it, DA. Did He rise from the dead, from physical death?
Yes
That is, was His resurrection a reality or not?
Yes
Did He appear to His apostles in His resurrected physical body, risen from PHYSICAL death?
Yes
Are we not told in Romans 5:9 that we are saved by His shed blood?
Yes
Real shed blood? Real death?
Yes
No, the death that entered the world with Adam was not only spiritual death but the death of the body.
This may be, but you are making assumptions that there absolutely was no physical death of any organism before Adam which this scripture does not clearly state or imply. It is your interpretation, your assumption, which many agree with, and many do not.
There is not one without the other. It is not mere spiritual life that Jesus' death gives us but real eternal life that includes the resurrection of our bodies.
I agree.
Which we need because the body died due to sin.
Adam did not immediately die. He lived for hundreds of years after. He immediately died spiritually (he was spiritually separated from God).
There is no death without sin, as scripture also says, and that means physical death. The wages of sin is death. Real death.
Spiritual and physical death, yes.
You really have been given a lot of liberal apostate misinterpretation of the Bible.
I haven't been given anything. I have read and studied alot.
Let me assure you that although there are plenty of apostates who share such nonsense with you, that there are plenty of traditional Bible believers who don't.
There are many Godly Christians who interpret the scripture the same way I do.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 332 of 397 (721410)
03-07-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:51 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
And you DID imply that I'm somehow alone in my beliefs or I wouldn't have bothered trying to answer you.
No I didn't.
If you mean when I stated that you would be alone with God in heaven, I was being facetious and was not seriously stating you would be the only one in heaven. It was a joke out of frustration.
It is based on this joke which is prevalent through the Christian community:
One day a man dies, who was a devout Christian. Saint Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates and begins to give him a tour of Heaven. As the tour goes on, Saint Paul points out all the different Christians. "There's the Catholics, there's the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians", and so forth. As they come to this one group way off to themselves, Saint Paul motions for the man to come closer and whispers. "Now, for this next group, we need to be really quiet. They are the Baptists and they think they're the only ones in Heaven."

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 333 of 397 (721411)
03-07-2014 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:51 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
I have no idea how apostate a person can be and still be considered Christian or "godly" but I wouldn't want to push the envelope myself.
You love labeling people don't you. Ok, your an "apostate".
Monty Python writes:
Peasants: We have found a witch! (A witch! a witch!)
Burn her burn her!
Peasant 1: We have found a witch, may we burn her?
Vladimir: How do you known she is a witch?
Peasant 2: She looks like one!
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 334 of 397 (721412)
03-07-2014 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
03-06-2014 11:51 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
I have no idea how apostate a person can be and still be considered Christian or "godly" but I wouldn't want to push the envelope myself.
Ok, than don't push the envelope.
Seriously, I have to head to bed so I can function at work tomorrow.
Honestly, I hold no ill will to you Faith. However, you need to learn how to respond to people without trying to belittle and talk down to them. Yes, I have my own faults as well. But hopefully we can discuss things reasonably and without disdain.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 11:51 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2014 12:24 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 335 of 397 (721413)
03-07-2014 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by DevilsAdvocate
03-07-2014 12:14 AM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Most Christians disagree with one another.
Otherwise there would not be some 40,000 or more different flavors:
According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world.
http://christianity.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=...Page not found | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
And no doubt each thinks it has the only real pipeline to the TRVTH.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:14 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:28 AM Coyote has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3178 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 336 of 397 (721414)
03-07-2014 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Coyote
03-07-2014 12:24 AM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Actually some Christian sects/denominations/churches are more accommodating than others who hold diverging beliefs. Methodists and other churches that Faith labels as "liberal" seem to be more accepting of others whose beliefs are slightly different than theirs, but still hold to the main tenants of Christian belief.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Coyote, posted 03-07-2014 12:24 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 12:53 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 337 of 397 (721415)
03-07-2014 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by DevilsAdvocate
03-07-2014 12:28 AM


J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Thought it might be apropos to put up a link to this classic, Christianity and Liberalism which is Presbyterian theologian and Princeton Professor J. Gresham Machen's response to the inroads of liberalism that were underway in the first part of the 20th century. I'm sure liberalism has "progressed," if it can be called that, since Machen's work, but the outlines are the same. This is the classic analysis of the watershed between orthodox Bible-believing Christianity and the false theology of liberalism.
ABE: From the Introduction:
The type of religion which rejoices in the pious sound of traditional phrases, regardless of their meanings, or shrinks from "controversial" matters, will never stand amid the shocks of life. In the sphere of religion, as in other spheres, the things about which men are agreed are apt to be the things that are least worth holding; the really important things are the things about which men will fight.
In the sphere of religion, in particular, the present time is a time of conflict; the great redemptive religion which has always been known as Christianity is battling against a totally diverse type of religious belief, which is only the more destructive of the Christian faith because it makes use of traditional Christian terminology.
This modern non-redemptive religion is called "modernism" or "liberalism." Both names are unsatisfactory; ... And indeed the movement is so various in its manifestations that one may almost despair of finding any common name which will apply to all its forms. But manifold as are the forms in which the movement appears, the root of the movement is one; the many varieties of modern liberal religion are rooted in naturalism--that is, in the denial of any entrance of the creative power of God (as distinguished from the ordinary course of nature) in connection with the origin of Christianity.
The denial that real physical death is what Christ is saving us from as well as a denatured sort of "spiritual" death for instance.
Also of course the embrace of the king of naturalistic thought, evolutionism.
Particularly note: It is destructive because it makes use of traditional Christian terminology. /ABE
ABE: Please note: Those who deny that my beliefs are the orthodox beliefs need to reckon with Machen among other theologians who represent my beliefs, against those so many here prefer to believe are the true Christianity although it's all upstart modern revisionist theology. Believe what you please of course, you're entitled to be wrong, and you ARE wrong about what is the true orthodox Christianity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 12:28 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 350 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 6:10 AM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 338 of 397 (721422)
03-07-2014 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:44 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
There is no way you are going to get me to treat homosexuality as the equivalent of race.
Then tell me how it is any different.
You claim that businesses can refuse service to anyone for any reason, but that clearly isn't true. You still haven't explained why we should expect non-christians to live by the edicts of a religion they don't belong to. You also haven't explained why homosexuals shouldn't be treated equally under the law, which includes regulations set out for businesses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 339 of 397 (721423)
03-07-2014 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Faith
03-07-2014 12:53 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Thought it might be apropos to put up a link to this classic, Christianity and Liberalism which is Presbyterian theologian and Princeton Professor J. Gresham Machen's response to the inroads of liberalism that were underway in the first part of the 20th century.
What we are discussing is laws that affect Americans, which include non-christians. Why, in a free country, should a person's rights be limited because of religious beliefs they don't hold?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 12:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:57 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 340 of 397 (721424)
03-07-2014 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:32 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
If you believe in evolution you do not believe all the Bible, DA, and I thought you said you believe in evolution.
"Professor Darrel Falk has recently pointed out that one should not take the view that young-earth creationism is simply tinkering around the edges of science. If the tenets of young earth creationism were true, basically all of the sciences of geology, cosmology, and biology would utterly collapse. It would be the same as saying 2 plus 2 is actually 5. The tragedy of young-earth creationism is that it takes a relatively recent and extreme view of Genesis, applies to it an unjustified scientific gloss, and then asks sincere and well-meaning seekers to swallow this whole, despite the massive discordance with decades of scientific evidence from multiple disciplines. Is it any wonder that many sadly turn away from faith concluding that they cannot believe in a God who asks for an abandonment of logic
and reason?"--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF9-03Collins.pdf
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:32 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by dwise1, posted 03-07-2014 3:10 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 341 of 397 (721425)
03-07-2014 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:48 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
There is a right to act according to conscience, which in this case comes down to a right to refuse service where it would violate one's conscience.
Where is this right found in any law? If serving blacks goes against your conscience and you refuse them service, guess what? You can face a law suit and lose. You have never shown that any such right exists for businesses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 3:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:38 AM Taq has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 342 of 397 (721426)
03-07-2014 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Taq
03-07-2014 2:45 AM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
It would be the same as saying 2 plus 2 is actually 5.
Last month, HBO showed a documentary, Questioning Darwin, which consisted mainly of creationists speaking and stating their beliefs and their position. One, a minister if I recall correctly, literally stated that if he were to find in the Bible that 2 + 2 is 5, then that is what it has to be. The Bible takes precedence over reality.
No, the creationists did not come off well in that documentary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:45 AM Taq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 343 of 397 (721427)
03-07-2014 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Taq
03-07-2014 2:47 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I've so repeatedly said that race is not what I'm talking about I'd think I wouldn't have to continue to say it. But OK, although I don't think there can be such a thing as conscientious racism, let's get it established that I do not believe that absolutely any attitude that claims conscience is to be honored, such as racism. Racism is not justified in the Bible, despite a lot of weird attempts here to make it seem it is, but homosexual acts are clearly condemned. I'd make that my standard although I'd prefer to make universal cultural practice my standard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:47 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 3:45 AM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 344 of 397 (721428)
03-07-2014 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:38 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I've so repeatedly said that race is not what I'm talking about . . .
We have so repeatedly said that discrimination is what we are talking about, and racism is an example of it.
But OK, although I don't think there can be such a thing as conscientious racism,
Your beliefs are wrong. Flat out wrong. In my own state of Idaho, we had the Aryan Nation church that had religious objections to marriages of mixed races, and rejected the equality of whites and blacks. Such racism has not fully disappeared.
Racism is not justified in the Bible,
We are talking about the laws that govern Americans, not christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 4:01 AM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1521 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 345 of 397 (721429)
03-07-2014 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Taq
03-07-2014 2:42 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
What we are discussing is laws that affect Americans, which include non-christians. Why, in a free country, should a person's rights be limited because of religious beliefs they don't hold?
First, since my Christian identity has been under assault from many angles in this discussion, it seems relevant to post information that vindicates my claim to it.
Second, it may surprise you to learn that the limitation of nonChristian rights was precisely the case in the early days of America, most especially the very early days of the colonies but also the days following the Constitution and the establishment of the federal government. Court cases of that period condemned blasphemy of the Christian God and declarations of atheism among other things. We're talking a pro-Christian attitude that prevailed for some three hundred or so years before it was usurped by modernism and the anti-Christian sentiment we now see at EvC for instance. Christianity ruled in the culture and it ruled in the government. This in spite of the fact that the major Constitutional founders were anti-Christian themselves and traitors to the original Christian vision of earlier generations. They did, however, have a strong positive regard for Christian morality despite their rejection of the gospel.
There IS a strong case to be made for that very view you find so odious in other words, though I know you aren't going to accept it now. My point is merely that your sentiment on the subject isn't as open and shut as you think. American freedoms were conceived and defended in the early years in the context of a strong pro-Christian understanding. Certainly not what today's revisionist constitutionalism would have one believe.
Something similar was the case in the UK too, though actually Britain had much better Christian-affirming laws than the US Constitution gave us, thanks to that generation.
Now it's all going under. You can rejoice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:42 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 4:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 353 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-07-2014 2:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024