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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 346 of 397 (721430)
03-07-2014 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Taq
03-07-2014 3:45 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
You are arguing with ME, remember? You cannot impose what YOU think "discrimination" is about on MY argument. I am NOT talking about racism.

Again, I do NOT accept the idea of conscientious racism, I don't care what various weird groups think.

We are talking about the laws that govern Americans, not christians.

But I was explaining the basis for MY point of view. and racism, which you all keep trying to hang on me, is NOT justified in the Bible and is not part of my argument here. I'm talking about the Biblical view of marriage and of homosexuality. Because I'm talking about MY view of these things, which I believe is the view of those who would refuse to participate in a gay wedding ceremony.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 3:45 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 4:18 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 347 of 397 (721431)
03-07-2014 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Faith
03-07-2014 4:01 AM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
You are arguing with ME, remember? You cannot impose what YOU think "discrimination" is about on MY argument.

I can define what discrimination is for me, or am I not allowed?

I am NOT talking about racism.

My argument is that discrimination based on race or sexual preference is equally discriminatory.

Again, I do NOT accept the idea of conscientious racism,

Then I don't accept the idea of conscientious discrimination based on sexual preference. Cuts both ways.

But I was explaining the basis for MY point of view. and racism, which you all keep trying to hang on me,

We are showing that the discrimination you are proposing is no different than racism. Also, your point of view does not carry the force of law, which is ultimately what we are talking about. What you state is of no importance to what the US Constitution and our laws state.

I'm talking about the Biblical view of marriage and of homosexuality.

I am talking about the laws that govern all Americans, including non-christians.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(4)
Message 348 of 397 (721432)
03-07-2014 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:57 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
First, since my Christian identity has been under assault from many angles in this discussion, it seems relevant to post information that vindicates my claim to it.

Second, it may surprise you to learn that the limitation of nonChristian rights was precisely the case in the early days of America, most especially the very early days of the colonies but also the days following the Constitution and the establishment of the federal government. Court cases of that period condemned blasphemy of the Christian God and declarations of atheism among other things. We're talking a pro-Christian attitude that prevailed for some three hundred or so years before it was usurped by modernism and the anti-Christian sentiment we now see at EvC for instance. Christianity ruled in the culture and it ruled in the government. This in spite of the fact that the major Constitutional founders were anti-Christian themselves and traitors to the original Christian vision of earlier generations. They did, however, have a strong positive regard for Christian morality despite their rejection of the gospel.

You will notice that none of this addresses my question.

Why, in a free country, should a person's rights be limited because of religious beliefs they don't hold?

There IS a strong case to be made for that very view you find so odious in other words, though I know you aren't going to accept it now. My point is merely that your sentiment on the subject isn't as open and shut as you think. American freedoms were conceived and defended in the early years in the context of a strong pro-Christian understanding.

But were they right for doing so?

Now it's all going under. You can rejoice.

What is going under? Let's see what has gone under so far: slavery, women prevented from voting, segregation . . . I could go on. If this is going under, sign me up for more.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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Heathen
Member (Idle past 517 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 349 of 397 (721433)
03-07-2014 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:44 PM


Re: There are Christians who disagree with Faith
I'm talking matters of conscience.
You believe it is perfectly fine to discriminate on matters of conscience.

Whose conscience?
If I decide to find redheads morally objectionable (due to their not having a soul) can I discriminate against them? Refuse them service in a shop? Entry to a theatre? Use of bus/train/taxi? ban them from my hotel?

For someone who bleats on about government keeping out of our daily affairs, (healthcare for example) I find it perplexing that you seem to want more government involvement in our bedrooms.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2334 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 350 of 397 (721434)
03-07-2014 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Faith
03-07-2014 12:53 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
The denial that real physical death is what Christ is saving us from as well as a denatured sort of "spiritual" death for instance.

How does Christ save us from physical death when all of us, everyone dies a physical death. Or do you believe you will miraculously avoid dying physically. Christ saved us from spiritual death. Even he died physically. Never does Christ say he will save us from physical death.

Your statement is not based on the Bible.

We are save from spiritual death and unless Christ returns before we die, we will die a physical death. Eternal life only occurs after a physical death unless God intervenes i.e. Enoch and Elijah.

It is destructive because it makes use of traditional Christian terminology.

It is a Christian and Biblical tenant that Jesus saves us from spiritual death. He gives us eternal life but only after death.

Those who deny that my beliefs are the orthodox beliefs need to reckon with Machen among other theologians who represent my beliefs, against those so many here prefer to believe are the true Christianity although it's all upstart modern revisionist theology. Believe what you please of course, you're entitled to be wrong, and you ARE wrong about what is the true orthodox Christianity.

You have never shown beyond your mere words in this post where I am wrong. Your quote by Professor Machen has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing either on the interpretation of Romans 5 or on the legal issue concerning homosexuality.

John 3:16 writes:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23 writes:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

We all perish but those who believe will have eternal life. We will die physically but not spiritually. But even if Romans is talking about both physical as well as spiritual death, which I am not denying, this is eternal life after this physical life. Besides, this is talking about humans, not all of creation. Animals and plants don't die spiritually. And this scripture specifically address mankind not any other part of creation.

Romans 5:12 writes:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—o be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Again, only people are talked about.

All people, not all creation. Your argument does not hold water.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are.” - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 12:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 638 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 351 of 397 (721435)
03-07-2014 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
03-06-2014 3:08 PM


bigotry
Far as I know all I'm condoning is the right to conscientiously refuse to do anything that is felt to support gay marriage. No hatred of people is involved at all, except possibly from your side against mine.

Message 267: There is no way you are going to get me to treat homosexuality as the equivalent of race.

bigotry
noun, plural bigotries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Synonyms
1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

bigotry
— n , pl -ries
the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance

Note this doesn't say hatred Faith, it just says stubborn, intolerant, prejudicial, narrow-minded biased discriminatory behavior is bigotry.

Now I could go through and list all the other posts where you demonstrate this in spades, because you are an unabashed bigot.

It's not about hatred, it's about moral social behavior and treating all other people the way you expect to be treated regardless of who they are.

This is where fundamentalist teaching harms people.

There is no fundamental right to be a bigot. There is a fundamental right to equal treatment regardless of race, age, sex, creed, orientation, culture, or any other category you want to apply.

Edited by RAZD, : ..

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7309
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 352 of 397 (721464)
03-07-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by RAZD
03-07-2014 6:48 AM


Re: bigotry
is a fundamental right to equal treatment regardless of race, age, sex, creed, orientation, culture, or any other category you want to apply.

Even felons.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 353 of 397 (721468)
03-07-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:57 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Tthe major Constitutional founders were anti-Christian themselves and traitors to the original Christian vision of earlier generations.

Let us be patriots and remain true to their vision, then, instead of introducing un-American novelties into the law.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 628 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(3)
Message 354 of 397 (721469)
03-07-2014 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Dr Adequate
03-07-2014 2:22 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Tthe major Constitutional founders were anti-Christian themselves and traitors to the original Christian vision of earlier generations.

Let us be patriots and remain true to their vision, then, instead of introducing un-American novelties into the law.

Not exactly to be nitpicking but were not the earlier generations of Americans actually "indians" or natives? Xianity would not have mattered to them much :-)

It is strange how the people of The Religion of Peace (tm) are in many cases actually totally void of any love or even compassion? The religious freedom seems to apply only to which denomination of xianity one belongs to.

Edited by saab93f, : Typos


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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 355 of 397 (721470)
03-07-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by saab93f
03-07-2014 2:33 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Not exactly to be nitpicking but were not the earlier generations of Americans actually "indians" or natives?

And if they had laws about selling cake to gay people, I've yet to hear of it.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(2)
Message 356 of 397 (721471)
03-07-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by saab93f
03-07-2014 2:33 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Not exactly to be nitpicking but were not the earlier generations of Americans actually "indians" or natives?

Only if you include Canadians and Mexicans as Americans. Living on the N. American continent is not the same as being a citizen of the modern nation state of the Unites States of America (or it's short lived predecessors after the Revolutionary War).


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Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(3)
Message 357 of 397 (721472)
03-07-2014 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Dr Adequate
03-07-2014 2:35 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
And if they had laws about selling cake to gay people, I've yet to hear of it.

It would be interesting to find a sign that said, "Light in the mocassins? No fry bread for you." Or, "Marriage means one man and 3 women only."


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 358 of 397 (721473)
03-07-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by saab93f
03-07-2014 2:33 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
I guess I always need to say *European* settlers to satisfy the nitpickers here.

Many Indian tribes and individuals did become Christian.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7309
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 359 of 397 (721474)
03-07-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:04 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Don't get me started on missionaries

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 628 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(2)
Message 360 of 397 (721475)
03-07-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Dr Adequate
03-07-2014 2:35 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
And if they had laws about selling cake to gay people, I've yet to hear of it.

I am quite sure that someone finds a way to discover such a law or at least an order or a decree.

The USofA is 238 years old construction. In its soil lay the footprints of several of millenia of people who had never "walked and talked wit Jeebus". To somehow describe what the puritans brought along as what the humanity or even America is altogether about is such narrowmindedness that it even exceeds Faith's bigotry.

Edited by saab93f, : Typo, again.


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