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Author Topic:   Arizona: Showing America how to avoid thinking since 1912
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1478 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(3)
Message 361 of 397 (721476)
03-07-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:04 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
Many Indian tribes and individuals did become Christian.
Yes, in a pretty similar fashion as what happened in Africa. Was is Desmond Tutu who said abou the missionaries that "When they came, we had the land and they had the Bibles. Next thing we noticed was that we had the Bibles and they the land"?
In most cases the Religion of Love(tm) has been spread with either a sword or a rifle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:28 PM saab93f has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 362 of 397 (721477)
03-07-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by DevilsAdvocate
03-07-2014 6:10 AM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
How does Christ save us from physical death when all of us, everyone dies a physical death. Or do you believe you will miraculously avoid dying physically. Christ saved us from spiritual death. Even he died physically. Never does Christ say he will save us from physical death.
Sorry, I guess I have to literally spell everything out. We are saved from death by RESURRECTION, DA, not from actually having to die. We don't stay dead, we don't even stay in spirit form, we are resurrected with our BODIES, that's a PHYSICAL resurrection, which was impossible before Jesus died and rose again. When you say that "even" Jesus died you seem not to grasp that because Jesus was sinless He didn't have to die at all, because death is the result of sin. (But of course someone who believes in evolution wouldn't grasp this since death is just a part of life for you) But Jesus died FOR us, in our place, so that HIS resurrection could be OUR resurrection. BODILY resurrection.
This IS based on the Bible but like a good liberal revisionist you change the meaning of the words that have been understood by orthodox theologians down the centuries in the sense I am using them. You really should read Machen who focuses on this liberal corruption of the Bible. Liberals don't seem to know how to read in context.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 6:10 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 3:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 368 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 3:54 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 363 of 397 (721478)
03-07-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by saab93f
03-07-2014 3:17 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
A good follower of revisionist history. No, there were genuine Christian converts among the Indians, converted by love and persuasion and not by sword.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by saab93f, posted 03-07-2014 3:17 PM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by saab93f, posted 03-07-2014 3:33 PM Faith has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1478 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 364 of 397 (721479)
03-07-2014 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:28 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
No, there were genuine Christian converts among the Indians, converted by love and persuasion and not by sword.
Yes, you are right. Of course there were also those who converted voluntarily. Does it vindicate xianity in a similar fashion as it would atheism since peeps turn from xianity to unbelief without coersion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:47 PM saab93f has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 365 of 397 (721480)
03-07-2014 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:26 PM


What Body?
We are saved from death by RESURRECTION, DA, not from actually having to die. We don't stay dead, we don't even stay in spirit form, we are resurrected with our BODIES ,,,
Good god! I don't want to be resurrected into this old, achy, arthritic body! Can't I have a better, younger one? I would like fresh eyes that are not fuzzy everywhere, a better digestive system that won't clog up, a bladder that actually stays empty for more than two hours ... and a bigger dick would be nice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 366 of 397 (721481)
03-07-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by saab93f
03-07-2014 3:33 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
I was merely trying to correct a typical revisionist history, not to "vindicate Christianity."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by saab93f, posted 03-07-2014 3:33 PM saab93f has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 367 of 397 (721482)
03-07-2014 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by AZPaul3
03-07-2014 3:45 PM


Re: What Body?
If you aren't saved I'm not sure what sort of body you might expect, but those who are saved get glorified perfected bodies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 3:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 368 of 397 (721483)
03-07-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:26 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
When you say that "even" Jesus died you seem not to grasp that because Jesus was sinless He didn't have to die at all, because death is the result of sin
I grasp that. You are throwing around baseless accusations and assumptions of what I do or do not grasp.
But of course someone who believes in evolution wouldn't grasp this since death is just a part of life for you)
Death is part of life. For everyone.
But Jesus died FOR us, in our place, so that HIS resurrection could be OUR resurrection. BODILY resurrection.
I Corinthians 15:35-38 writes:
It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but THEY WILL BE RAISED AS SPIRITUAL BODIES. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
Those in Christ will be raised with a spiritual body which are conversions of our physical bodies to a perfected spiritual body.
You really should read Machen who focuses on this liberal corruption of the Bible
And I could say your intrepretation is liberal. You have not shown where my interpretation of the Bible differs from Machen. Not that it matters to me what Machen does or does not believe.
Liberals don't seem to know how to read in context.
And I could say the same for you. Your accusations against me are baseless and void of evidence.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 6:21 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 369 of 397 (721484)
03-07-2014 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
03-07-2014 3:48 PM


Re: What Body?
Where in my, fast becoming, inerrant bible does it assure this perfection in my AL (after life) body? Is there a list of what attributes this AL body has, what is meant by "perfect"? I certainly don't want to leave those kinds of decisions to a tribe of 3000 year old desert nomads.
If I'm given a new perfect body, "perfect" would have to do something about my face. I might feel like me inside but it wouldn't really be me, would it? I mean, it would really not do for me to look into my perfect mirror in my perfect man-cave and have to ask, "Who the hell are you?!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 3:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 370 of 397 (721487)
03-07-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by DevilsAdvocate
03-07-2014 3:54 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
When you say that "even" Jesus died you seem not to grasp that because Jesus was sinless He didn't have to die at all, because death is the result of sin
I grasp that. You are throwing around baseless accusations and assumptions of what I do or do not grasp.
Again, I'm taking it from what you've written, but if I'm wrong I'm happy to be wrong. But since you believe in evolution it seems you must deny what the Bible says about how death entered with sin -- ABE meaning not only spiritual but physical death /ABE --, and if you deny that, instead thinking that death is just a part of life and not something that entered that corrupted the life God gave, I'd think it would make Jesus' death for us hard to explain.
But of course someone who believes in evolution wouldn't grasp this since death is just a part of life for you)
Death is part of life. For everyone.
But the question is whether death was ALWAYS a "part of life" according to your theology or a corruption of life that entered because of sin, as my theology says. You appear to think that Adam would have died anyway and not on account of sin, the Fall, so that the only death he died was a "spiritual" death. Do I have that wrong? So that although you can go on to describe our resurrected bodies I have to wonder where that fits into your theology since it seems to be all about spiritual life and death and not bodily life and death to you.
Those in Christ will be raised with a spiritual body which are conversions of our physical bodies to a perfected spiritual body.
As long as "spiritual" doesn't mean something ethereal to you, something that can't eat fish for instance, as Jesus demonstrated He could in His glorified body, but really IS a body, though changed and glorified, we are in agreement on this point.
But again, your language in general about spiritual death as opposed to bodily death suggests you don't believe Jesus died for our bodies and that "spiritual body" suggests something nonphysical.
We are even said in scripture to be WAITING FOR the redemption of our BODY, not just our spirit. [abe: which confirms the interpretation that the body died at the Fall, or why would it need to be redeemed? /abe] In fact according to my theology our spirits are already regenerated through being born again in Christ.
Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Our body is vile now because corrupted by the sin nature, so it needs to be raised an uncorrupted body.
The reason to read Machen is that he demonstrates how liberals change the meaning of the Biblical text. You can quote the part about the spiritual body correctly for instance, but in the context of other things you've said about how it's all about spiritual death rather than bodily death, it seems likely you mean something different by all these things than traditional theology taught for all the centuries up to the development of modernism or liberalism.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 3:54 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by herebedragons, posted 03-07-2014 8:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 374 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 9:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 696 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 371 of 397 (721488)
03-07-2014 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
03-06-2014 10:41 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
"BiBlical prophecy" .. also known as 'Ink Blot Test for the gullible'. That is no basis for waving the bible and being a bigot, and treating your fellow human beings as pieces of dirt.
You should be ashamed of yourself, but you will take this and proclaim that 'See, it was right in the bible they would persecute us'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 03-06-2014 10:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 7:45 PM ramoss has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 372 of 397 (721490)
03-07-2014 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by ramoss
03-07-2014 6:43 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Funny, I've treated no one as a "piece of dirt" but you have. What's your excuse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by ramoss, posted 03-07-2014 6:43 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 941 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 373 of 397 (721492)
03-07-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Faith
03-07-2014 6:21 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
You appear to think that Adam would have died anyway and not on account of sin, the Fall, so that the only death he died was a "spiritual" death.
Well, why did God say to Adam regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." I have looked up the Hebrew word used for die in that verse in my concordance and no where else is it used in the context of spiritual death. There is no indication that die means to start the process of dying. It means exactly what it says - Adam would physically die. And yet Adam and Eve ate of it and they did not die, not for hundreds of years later.
In fact, when God finds out what happened he says "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." He even had to assign cherubim with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life to keep man from it. Why was he worried that man might live forever when he had sworn that eating the fruit would result in death.
Also, why did God make all the plants for food? Why would an eternal being that could not die need to eat? You do realize why we eat right? We need to take in energy from the environment to maintain our body systems. Without that intake of energy, we would die. And yet if before the fall there was no death, why would Adam need to eat? Did Adam need to eat or did God make food available just for fun?
Oh, and you do realize that plants die when you eat them, right? So there WAS death. But you probably want to restrict the meaning of death to only things that breath air; oh wait ... plants breath air too. So was there ANY organisms that died before the fall? How about bacteria? Nematodes?
instead thinking that death is just a part of life and not something that entered that corrupted the life God gave, I'd think it would make Jesus' death for us hard to explain.
I don't see that. Why does it make Jesus' death hard to explain? His death would still pay the price that could reconcile us to God. Why does death being a part of the physical world change that?
The whole "no death before the fall" bit just doesn't make sense and it doesn't even fit with the Biblical evidence.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 6:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-07-2014 9:25 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 12:40 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 374 of 397 (721493)
03-07-2014 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Faith
03-07-2014 6:21 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
But since you believe in evolution it seems you must deny what the Bible says about how death entered with sin
No
-- ABE meaning not only spiritual but physical death /ABE --
Yes of humans. The passages in Romans that Paul writes is talking about spiritual death of humans as a result of Adam's sin. If it is also talking about physical death as you say, and I do not deny, than it is only talking about human physical death.
and if you deny that, instead thinking that death is just a part of life and not something that entered that corrupted the life God gave, I'd think it would make Jesus' death for us hard to explain.
Why? Jesus' death and resurrection enables us as Christians to avoid spiritual death (separation from God) not physical death.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 6:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 375 of 397 (721494)
03-07-2014 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by herebedragons
03-07-2014 8:53 PM


Re: J G Machen "Christianity and Liberalism"
The words in Greek for death 'thanatos', 'necros', 'apothnēskō' used in Romans 6 and other locations in Scripture have a meaning which are interchangeable for physical and/or spiritual death. There is no distinction using these words alone. The meaning must be derived from the context in which it is written. Sometimes it means one or the other, sometimes it means both.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by herebedragons, posted 03-07-2014 8:53 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
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