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ramoss
Member (Idle past 696 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 376 of 397 (721495)
03-08-2014 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Faith
03-07-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Most Christians disagree with Faith
Excuse me??I think you should review your own posts. I can't believe anybody can be so self unaware. I would love to see you right about even ONE thing one day, but , I am not gonna bet on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Faith, posted 03-07-2014 7:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 377 of 397 (721496)
03-08-2014 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by herebedragons
03-07-2014 8:53 PM


The Meaning of Jesus' Death
You appear to think that Adam would have died anyway and not on account of sin, the Fall, so that the only death he died was a "spiritual" death.
Well, why did God say to Adam regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil "for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." I have looked up the Hebrew word used for die in that verse in my concordance and no where else is it used in the context of spiritual death. There is no indication that die means to start the process of dying. It means exactly what it says - Adam would physically die. And yet Adam and Eve ate of it and they did not die, not for hundreds of years later.
It's Devils Advocate who thinks Adam only died spiritually [ABE: AS A RESULT OF THE FALL/ABE], not I. I think Adam died both spiritually and physically [abe: AS A RESULT OF THE FALL /ABE]. He did die physically, right? He isn't still living, right? Why assume that God meant he would physically die immediately? But that is also true if you think in terms of the corruption of the body, disease etc., as a process of death, because that would have started in his body immediately. If you believe that God does not lie then you try to understand what He meant. Seems obvious that He meant the whole being became subject to death, and that has to include every kind of corruption of the soul and body. It DID occur immediately, it also had prolonged consequences and in the end complete physical death.
In fact, when God finds out what happened he says "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." He even had to assign cherubim with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life to keep man from it. Why was he worried that man might live forever when he had sworn that eating the fruit would result in death.
I've always understood this to be because he would have lived forever in a condition of sin and corruption, or paradoxically you could say, in a condition of death. Which is how Satan and his demons "live forever." Perpetually and increasingly full of hatred and pain and fear and disease, malevolent to "perfection" but never dying. This is not life as God wants us to have it. Jesus had to die to remove sin from us so that we could have eternal life free from sin and all the evils we are subject to from sin.
Also, why did God make all the plants for food? Why would an eternal being that could not die need to eat? You do realize why we eat right? We need to take in energy from the environment to maintain our body systems. Without that intake of energy, we would die. And yet if before the fall there was no death, why would Adam need to eat? Did Adam need to eat or did God make food available just for fun?
I don't know but Jesus also demonstrated that even in His glorified body He ate. Eating may have a different meaning or function to an immortal being. I look forward to finally understanding such things.
Oh, and you do realize that plants die when you eat them, right? So there WAS death. But you probably want to restrict the meaning of death to only things that breath air; oh wait ... plants breath air too. So was there ANY organisms that died before the fall? How about bacteria? Nematodes?
Yes, plants don't count. Not the same kind of life, not the same kind of breathing, not the same kind of death. Best I can do. I'm not God. I'm sure we'll all understand these things some day.
instead thinking that death is just a part of life and not something that entered that corrupted the life God gave, I'd think it would make Jesus' death for us hard to explain.
I don't see that. Why does it make Jesus' death hard to explain? His death would still pay the price that could reconcile us to God. Why does death being a part of the physical world change that?
Maybe I should have said it makes His death too easy to explain; it makes it trivial. It loses its importance and its meaning in connection with the Fall from which His death is to redeem us. It becomes a mere token rather than the world-shattering re-creation of life in the abolition of sin and death that we understand it to be. "The wages of sin is death" is meaningless in the context of death as a natural part of the physical world, but as an explanation of the reality we actually live it becomes the reason the sinless man-God who could not die in Himself took on death in our place for our sake.
The whole "no death before the fall" bit just doesn't make sense and it doesn't even fit with the Biblical evidence.
I'd say you're missing a lot.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : To add "AS A RESULT OF THE FALL in two places due to bizarre accusation that I'm lying rather than that I simply didn't feel it necessary to say the whole thing over and over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by herebedragons, posted 03-07-2014 8:53 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 1:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 380 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 2:18 AM Faith has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 378 of 397 (721498)
03-08-2014 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
03-08-2014 12:40 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
It's Devils Advocate who thinks Adam only died spiritually, not I.
No I don't. Lying again about me, eh Faith. Show me my quote where I said Adam didn't die a physical death. You know it is un-Christlike to lie.
Of course Adam died physically as well as spiritually. Or is Adam the 2000 year old man (that's a joke).
What I said was that Adam died spiritually immediately after sinning against God and then later died physically. Really, Faith, where do you get this nonsense from.
Here is my quote from a previous post:
Devils Advocate in Post 331 writes:
Adam did not immediately die. He lived for hundreds of years after. He immediately died spiritually (he was spiritually separated from God).
I think Adam died both spiritually and physically.
One statement we agree on. Not sure where you got the nonsense statement before that.
But that is also true if you think in terms of the corruption of the body, disease etc., as a process of death, because that would have started in his body immediately
Again, why would there be a tree of life in the Garden of Eden if Adam could live forever from the get go.
Yes, plants don't count. Not the same kind of life,
So plants could die but only animals and humans lived forever at the beginning of creation? Where does it say this in the Bible. Are you just making this up as you go?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 12:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 1:56 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 5:14 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 391 by xongsmith, posted 03-08-2014 12:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 379 of 397 (721499)
03-08-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate
03-08-2014 1:29 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
You don't need to accuse me of lying, I simply have some trouble grasping your point of view. You've been arguing with me that sin and redemption are all about spiritual death, not physical death, so please try again to make your meaning clearer to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 1:29 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 2:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 380 of 397 (721500)
03-08-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
03-08-2014 12:40 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
It becomes a mere token rather than the world-shattering re-creation of life in the abolition of sin and death that we understand it to be.
It is still a recreation of life from death no matter which way you look at it. Either way his resurrection is a miracle from God.
"The wages of sin is death" is meaningless in the context of death as a natural part of the physical world, but as an explanation of the reality we actually live it becomes the reason the sinless man-God who could not die in Himself took on death in our place for our sake.
But death is a natural part of the physical world. Physical death is a process of the physical world, is it not? Is physical death not under the laws of nature.
Romans 6:23 writes:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord,"
The wages of sin is spiritual death. The gift is eternal life in our new glorified bodies.
Now contrast that with Romans 8:13
Romans 8:13 writes:
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
This is clearly talking about spiritual life and death. Not physical. We will all die physically, will we not die spiritually if we are redeemed by Christ.
"Putting to death the deeds of the body" is talking about being redeemed by God through salvation. "you will live" is clearly talking about living spiritually (not being separated from God).
We lose our physical bodies and are raised a new with spiritual bodies.
I Corinithians 15:42-45 writes:
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual
As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.
The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Who is that last Adam, why Christ of course, who is a life-giving spirit. Exactly what form this body is. Well as you mentioned, it looks like our present bodies but in perfect form, whatever that means. After the resurrection and before being taken into heaven, Jesus could walk, talk, open doors, eat, etc with it, but he could also do much more with it (i.e. go through locked doors - John 20:19). Maybe so too with us, who knows. Maybe similar to the form that angels have. Physical and spiritual all rolled up into one. I am not exactly sure. However, Revelations remarks that we will not cry or mourn. And we will not die physically or spiritually.
Revelations 21:4 writes:
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Here are a few scriptures that describe this new body:
Philippians 3:21 writes:
Who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Revelations 20:4 writes:
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
So obviously the bodies of the beheaded did not show up to heaven without heads, correct? So it is a new body, a glorified body, whether you want to call it physical or spiritual is irrelevant. However, it will not be exactly like our old physical, natural bodies.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 12:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 5:56 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 381 of 397 (721501)
03-08-2014 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
03-08-2014 1:56 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
You don't need to accuse me of lying,
But you did. You clearly stated something I never said and is contrary to what I said. That is lying.
I simply have some trouble grasping your point of view.
Then you should have asked before telling other people something I never said.
You've been arguing with me that sin and redemption are all about spiritual death, not physical death,
My main point is that the Bible does not say that physical death of animals and plants began at Adams fall.
The issue of sin and redemption is what you brought into play.
We are redeemed through the blood of Christ, so we can live anew in heaven. Our spiritual souls will not die not our physical bodies. Our physical bodies will die and then be renewed, recreated so to speak to a new glorified body.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 1:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 382 of 397 (721502)
03-08-2014 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate
03-08-2014 1:29 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
It's Devils Advocate who thinks Adam only died spiritually, not I.
No I don't. Lying again about me, eh Faith. Show me my quote where I said Adam didn't die a physical death. You know it is un-Christlike to lie.
No lie, I merely didn't get the whole phrase said.
In Message 315 you said:
Spiritual death entered through one man, Adam.
Surely at least from the context of this discussion, as well as the fact that it would be absurd to suggest otherwise, you should know I didn't mean you denied that Adam physically died but that he died physically BECAUSE OF THE FALL [and I just added those words to my Message 377 where you apparently took me as lying], and that physical death for all of us is the result of the Fall.
As I've understood your argument, you've been insisting that it's only spiritual death that was the result of the Fall, and the implication of that is that physical death is natural, which would also support your belief in evolution.
Now you seem to be saying that it's only animals and plants you are talking about, as if you hadn't been denying that human death is the result of the Fall, as in Message 381 I see you are saying
Faith writes:
You've been arguing with me that sin and redemption are all about spiritual death, not physical death,
DA writes:
My main point is that the Bible does not say that physical death of animals and plants began at Adams fall.
That's your *main* point? No, at least the point I've been arguing with is your saying that ADAM's physical death was not the result of the Fall. Are you saying something different than that or not?
As for the death of animals being a result of the Fall I think it is inferred from the statement in Genesis that God put the whole Creation under the curse for the sake of humanity; also Paul's statement that "through one man death entered into the world" which is taken to mean Creation as a whole; also the statement that "all Creation groans for the revealing of the Sons of God" suggesting that the whole Creation, which certainly includes the animals, suffers on account of human sin too, and eagerly awaits the final redemption just as we do.
Plants, again, do not seem to be treated in scripture as living in the sense that animals and human beings are.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : to add URL
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 1:29 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 383 of 397 (721503)
03-08-2014 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by DevilsAdvocate
03-08-2014 2:18 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
But death is a natural part of the physical world. Physical death is a process of the physical world, is it not? Is physical death not under the laws of nature.
Only because of the Fall, but it was not a part of the original Creation.
Romans 6:23 writes:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord,"
The wages of sin is spiritual death. The gift is eternal life in our new glorified bodies.
You are adding the "spiritual" to limit it to "spiritual death" but the normal reading is physical death. It includes spiritual death just as eternal life also includes the resurrected body.
Now contrast that with Romans 8:13
Romans 8:13 writes:
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
This is clearly talking about spiritual life and death. Not physical. We will all die physically, will we not die spiritually if we are redeemed by Christ.
OK, here he is talking about eternal life versus death as a result of living according to the flesh.
"Putting to death the deeds of the body" is talking about being redeemed by God through salvation.
This is also a very odd reading in my experience. This is about our own obligation to mortify the sins of the body, though through the Spirit of course. In context it is WE who are putting to death our deeds through the Spirit, not Christ.
"you will live" is clearly talking about living spiritually (not being separated from God).
But you are making an unnecessary distinction between physical life and spiritual life. It refers to both. Life is obedience to God, mortification of sin fosters that life; that life is both spiritual and physical.
We lose our physical bodies and are raised a new with spiritual bodies.
We will be CHANGED, scripture says, not that we will "lose" our bodies but that they will be glorified and perfected.
But as you go on I see that we are in agreement about all the scripture you quote about how our resurrected bodies will be different than our physical bodies now.
The only point is that they WILL be bodies, we will not be disembodied spirits, like angels or demons and ghosts. Jesus made a point of emphasizing that.
So we agree on that much. What we disagree about is that Christ's death redeemed our physical bodies from death which came upon us because of sin at the Fall, just as He redeems our spirit, which I believe is done or at least begun when we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 2:18 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 6:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 396 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-08-2014 8:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 389 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 384 of 397 (721504)
03-08-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
03-08-2014 5:56 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
Only because of the Fall, but it was not a part of the original Creation.
Just a silly question for you but what would have happened if say no one ate the apple. Apart from snakes walking around how long till the planet would be to full of people to move.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 5:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 6:17 AM frako has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 385 of 397 (721505)
03-08-2014 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by frako
03-08-2014 6:06 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
No idea. But the entire universe would have been different so perhaps all the planets were habitable. Who knows, I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 6:06 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 6:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 388 by saab93f, posted 03-08-2014 8:02 AM Faith has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 389 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 386 of 397 (721506)
03-08-2014 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
03-08-2014 6:17 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
No idea. But the entire universe would have been different so perhaps all the planets were habitable. Who knows, I don't.
haha yea sure, lets do some math to give us a picture of what would be going on.
say every 10 years a couple has a child, since you dont get old and god has commanded you to procreate seem reasnoble.
so you got 2 adam and eve
10 years later 3
20 years 4
30 years 6
40 years 9
50 years 13
60 years 20
70 years 30
80 years 45
90 years 67
100 years 100
110 years 150
120 . 225
130 337
140 505
150 757
840 years is the best my spreadsheet can do its 825 286 036 876 006
you can tiker as much as you want with the formula it will always go berserk real fast because no one is dying and everyone can breed.
So either god wanted us to eat the apple to make his world work or he planned to castrate us at some point in life.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 6:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 7:34 AM frako has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 387 of 397 (721507)
03-08-2014 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by frako
03-08-2014 6:45 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
We don't need to assume there was no Fall to assume such high numbers you know. They lived even after the Fall to be hundreds of years old so they *could* have had many more than you are accounting for, but what scant evidence there is suggests nobody was procreating at the rate you have in mind, although I agree it certainly seems possible. In Genesis 5, the list of patriarchs, the first son is said to have been conceived when the father is around a hundred years old or older and then other sons and daughters are mentioned but not specified. If Genesis 10 gives the whole picture, Noah only had three sons although he lived to be 950. His descendants, listed by sons only, don't add up to huge numbers, maybe half a dozen to a father, sometimes only two. It's possible of course that many were not reported, only the major heirs in a line, and certainly daughters must have been born but weren't named. But specific names of the men are given, whose genealogies are followed down the centuries, which suggests that the numbers weren't anywhere near what you are guessing, for whatever reason, even for those generations that lived hundreds of years.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 6:45 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by ringo, posted 03-08-2014 11:47 AM Faith has replied
 Message 393 by frako, posted 03-08-2014 2:02 PM Faith has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1478 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 388 of 397 (721508)
03-08-2014 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
03-08-2014 6:17 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
But the entire universe would have been different so perhaps all the planets were habitable. Who knows, I don't.
While it is just fine to say "I don't know", there are limits to which it can be applied. Throwing wild unsubstantiated ideas is all creationists are capable of whether it is water-canopy, racing tectonic plates or in this case Mars and Venus and? being habitable.
You do know that just recently we (the human race) got a probe on Mars and what you are implying is that there'd been a way to mass transport billions of people...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 6:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 8:14 AM saab93f has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1528 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 389 of 397 (721509)
03-08-2014 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by saab93f
03-08-2014 8:02 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
We're fallen, they weren't. That was frako's context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by saab93f, posted 03-08-2014 8:02 AM saab93f has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 390 of 397 (721516)
03-08-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
03-08-2014 7:34 AM


Re: The Meaning of Jesus' Death
Faith writes:
We don't need to assume there was no Fall....
We don't "assume" there was no Fall. We conclude there was no Fall - both by reading the Bible and by looking at reality.
Unfortunately, fundamentalist Christianity all too often involves a fall from humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 7:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-08-2014 6:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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