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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 256 of 339 (744679)
12-14-2014 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
12-14-2014 2:25 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Phat writes:

To one man, evidence may be well grounded yet may not be justifiable,relevant, or meaningful.


Nope. That would be subjective opinion.

Evidence is evident, not just to one man but to anybody who looks at it objectively. Disregarding it in favour of [nothing] is not valid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 2:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 257 of 339 (744680)
12-14-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
12-14-2014 2:40 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
ringo writes:

Evidence is evident, not just to one man but to anybody who looks at it objectively.

in matters of belief, my evidence is subjective. Objective evidence regarding belief is best left to stodgy,arrogant Cambridge Professors, in my opinion. Then again, I may just be a sore loser.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-14-2014 2:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2014 5:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 12-15-2014 10:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 258 of 339 (744687)
12-14-2014 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:17 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
You're not engaging with the question Phat.

If the question was reversed and I was asked what evidence would begin to change my mind I could cite almost unlimited stuff. If prayer healed a broken arm instantly, if there was evidence of a global flood, if an organanism was found without a carbon base, if there was a population bottleneck 10,000 years ago, if the Turin shroud carbon dated to 2,000 years, if a communion wafer contained human DNA, if a tablet of the correct date had 10 commandments written on them - and on and on and on. Some of these things would throw all sorts of science into question, some would Lend evidence for a Godlike intervention.

Over the years, scientific discoveries have pushed back the boundaries of simple biblical belief, with the exception of a few creationist fruitloops, it's now retreated to a wholly ephemeral place of personal belief where it can't be touched by reality.

What I've been reading in several threads lately has simply baffled me - endless pages of narcisistic, self-referencing drivel. Simply making up endless amounts of stuff that amounts to no more than literary criticism. Creating multitudes of untestable ideas about what biblical stories mean without a thought to the fact that the evidence is that they can mean whatever a charismatic teller of the stories want them to mean.

It reads like a desparate attempt at consolation - the idea that this is what there is seems to terrify the life out of believers.

So put that fear aside for at least ten minutes - what could change your mind?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Jon, posted 12-14-2014 6:53 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 7:22 AM Tangle has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 259 of 339 (744693)
12-14-2014 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Tangle
12-14-2014 5:21 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
If the question was reversed and I was asked what evidence would begin to change my mind I could cite almost unlimited stuff. If prayer healed a broken arm instantly, if there was evidence of a global flood, if an organanism was found without a carbon base, if there was a population bottleneck 10,000 years ago, if the Turin shroud carbon dated to 2,000 years, if a communion wafer contained human DNA, if a tablet of the correct date had 10 commandments written on them - and on and on and on. Some of these things would throw all sorts of science into question, some would Lend evidence for a Godlike intervention.

What would those things change your mind about?

Creating multitudes of untestable ideas about what biblical stories mean without a thought to the fact that the evidence is that they can mean whatever a charismatic teller of the stories want them to mean.

The stories have a context. There may still be quite a bit of wiggle room even within that context, but it is certainly not the case that they can simply mean 'whatever'.

It reads like a desparate attempt at consolation - the idea that this is what there is seems to terrify the life out of believers.

Of the many reasons I have for believing, I can't say that fear of anything is one of them.

what could change your mind?

How is someone supposed to answer that question? The conditions that led me to be a believer were thrown at me without warning and I had no idea that they would lead me down a path to belief. There probably is something that would change my mind, but until I experience that, I really have no idea what that could be; just like I had no idea what kind of an experience would make me believe until I had those experiences.

Belief isn't science. We can't say that XYZ will falsify the theory and ABC support it.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2014 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 6:59 PM Jon has responded
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2014 2:56 AM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 260 of 339 (744694)
12-14-2014 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Jon
12-14-2014 6:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Jon writes:

Belief isn't science. We can't say that XYZ will falsify the theory and ABC support it.

Does that not depend on the particular belief and the willingness of the believer to examine evidence honestly?

There are lots of folk that believe that one or more of the Biblical Floods actually happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Jon, posted 12-14-2014 6:53 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Jon, posted 12-14-2014 7:50 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 8:12 AM jar has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 339 (744697)
12-14-2014 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
12-14-2014 6:59 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Does that not depend on the particular belief and the willingness of the believer to examine evidence honestly?

In a loose sense, yes.

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about belief in general as the acceptance of any claim whatsoever, but belief as faith in things that cannot be measured or unmeasured.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 6:59 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 262 of 339 (744741)
12-15-2014 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Jon
12-14-2014 6:53 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
jon writes:

The stories have a context. There may still be quite a bit of wiggle room even within that context, but it is certainly not the case that they can simply mean 'whatever'.

But that is precisely what is going on in the Calvanism thread - claims are being made about god that are entirely contradictory. So much so that different branches of the same religion were created from pure fantasy and are still being fantasised about centuries later.

Belief isn't science. We can't say that XYZ will falsify the theory and ABC support it.

People believe precisely what they want or need to belief. Phat's desperate need to believe is evident to anyone reading his stuff. Mormonism was a pure invention which non-Mormons can see as utterly silly, why can't you use that kind of analysis on your own fantasies?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Jon, posted 12-14-2014 6:53 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Jon, posted 12-15-2014 9:47 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 263 of 339 (744744)
12-15-2014 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Tangle
12-14-2014 5:21 PM


Give It Ten Minutes
Tangle writes:

So put that fear aside for at least ten minutes - what could change your mind?

I already addressed this basic issue here.

Perhaps I do have a desperation and need to believe---precisely the one thing you lack. Were I to put aside this anxiety for "10 minutes" (as well as my belief itself) my mind would already have changed...for ten minutes at least.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2014 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2014 8:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 264 of 339 (744748)
12-15-2014 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
12-14-2014 6:59 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
jar writes:

There are lots of folk that believe that one or more of the Biblical Floods actually happened.

Did the Tornado actually happen in The Wizard Of Oz?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 12-14-2014 6:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 12-15-2014 8:22 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 265 of 339 (744749)
12-15-2014 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
12-15-2014 8:12 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Huh?

Yes, in the Wizard of Oz the tornado actually happened but was that really what you were trying to ask?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 8:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 8:39 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 266 of 339 (744750)
12-15-2014 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
12-15-2014 7:22 AM


Re: Give It Ten Minutes
Phat writes:

Perhaps I do have a desperation and need to believe---precisely the one thing you lack.

If some people have a need to believe and some do not, what does that say about the actual belief? You'll be aware that many people believe totally different things about their gods than you do - how can that be? Doesn't it suggest to you that people might be inventing things to believe in, just so they can feel more secure?

Put it another way, if there is a god and only a single god, why would he make people with different emotional capacity to believe in him, then punish those that don't have those emotions? Why would he present himself in totally different ways to different peoples and tribes over different eras? Doesn't the fact that over millenium there have been thousands of different Gods available for believers point to the possibility that gods are human inventions?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 7:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 267 of 339 (744751)
12-15-2014 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
12-15-2014 8:22 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
In the Bible Story, did the Flood actually happen?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 12-15-2014 8:22 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 12-15-2014 9:05 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 268 of 339 (744753)
12-15-2014 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Phat
12-15-2014 8:39 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Phat writes:

In the Bible Story, did the Flood actually happen?

That is where the problems start cropping up. There are at least two mutually exclusive Biblical flood stories in Genesis; if one actually happens in the story then the other cannot.

While the Wizard of Oz is internally consistent the Bible is often internally inconsistent. We can say that in the Wizard of Oz the tornado actually happened but we cannot say that in the Bible either of the Biblical flood myths actually happened.

But wait, there's more.

In the Bible stories the two different and mutually exclusive flood myths are all mushed up together as though they were one tale.

We know that scripture was edited with parts added or removed and that tales evolved over time totally changing meanings and import but the versions are separated and given different attribution. This is quite clear when we look at the evolution of the Great Commission as retold over time and in the revisionist Gospel of John but here the different traditions are not separated or given different attributions.

So the critical question that begs to be answered is "Why mush up two mutually exclusive tales into one with no attribution?"


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Phat, posted 12-15-2014 8:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 269 of 339 (744757)
12-15-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
12-15-2014 2:56 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
But that is precisely what is going on in the Calvanism thread - claims are being made about god that are entirely contradictory. So much so that different branches of the same religion were created from pure fantasy and are still being fantasised about centuries later.

Well, this isn't the Calvinism thread. I don't know what to tell you about that and I don't know what to tell you about other people's beliefs.

People believe precisely what they want or need to belief.

Depends. Sometimes people just believe what they're told to believe. Sometimes they believe things completely against their best interests.

Phat's desperate need to believe is evident to anyone reading his stuff.

Yes. But from talking to Phat I understand his need to believe developed well after the belief was already there. He didn't start believing out of some desperate need to do so, but once he was a believer then such naturally became an integral part of his identity that he understandable feels is necessary to him being who he sees himself as being.

Mormonism was a pure invention which non-Mormons can see as utterly silly,

Sure; and we can realize most of that because Mormonism makes plenty of claims about the real world that can be falsified.

The same cannot be said about beliefs in entities that are completely outside the realm of the physical, material world and whose interaction with our physical, material world is believed to take place but is admitted to be undetectable and thus not worthy of any scientific consideration even by the people holding those beliefs.

why can't you use that kind of analysis on your own fantasies?

Who said I can't? My beliefs are admittedly silly. They make no sense to anyone else and only very little sense to me. They are likely all wrong because, let's be honest, given all the possible answers to questions about God and religion, what are the chances that I stumbled on the right one(s)?

But that doesn't mean I should stop believing what I believe.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2014 2:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2014 10:26 AM Jon has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10327
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 270 of 339 (744763)
12-15-2014 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Jon
12-15-2014 9:47 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Jon writes:

My beliefs are admittedly silly. They make no sense to anyone else and only very little sense to me. They are likely all wrong because, let's be honest, given all the possible answers to questions about God and religion, what are the chances that I stumbled on the right one(s)?

So you believe that your beliefs (about God etc.) are "likely all wrong"...?

Jon writes:

But that doesn't mean I should stop believing what I believe.

Combined with the belief that your beliefs are wrong and - BOOM - We are in head explosion territory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Jon, posted 12-15-2014 9:47 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Jon, posted 12-15-2014 12:16 PM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 12-16-2014 12:21 PM Straggler has responded

  
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