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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 271 of 339 (744766)
12-15-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:17 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Phat writes:

in matters of belief, my evidence is subjective. Objective evidence regarding belief is best left to stodgy,arrogant Cambridge Professors, in my opinion.


You're using some odd vocabulary there. Evidence is not objective or subjective. The way we look at evidence is objective or subjective.

But evidence is evident; you don't get to pick and choose your evidence.

There is no such thing as "evidence regarding belief". If you have evidence, you don't need belief.

Once again, disregarding evidence is not a valid position to take, period.

Phat writes:

Then again, I may just be a sore loser.


If you're disregarding evidence, the term is "willfully ignorant" or "intellectually dishonest".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 339 (744775)
12-15-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Straggler
12-15-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
I guess my head's just a little more resilient than yours.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2014 10:26 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 273 of 339 (744858)
12-16-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Straggler
12-15-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Straggler,speaking to Jon writes:

So you believe that your beliefs (about God etc.) are "likely all wrong"...?

It appears that Jon states that he has certain beliefs, irrational though they may be, and that they are likely not the absolute correct actuality given that the actuality is likely greater than human capability of comprehension.

In other words, I believe X as I understand X yet the actual breadth and scope of X is likely beyond what I can understand...thus my answer(my belief) is incomplete at this time.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2014 10:26 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Straggler, posted 12-17-2014 6:04 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10327
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 274 of 339 (744946)
12-17-2014 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
12-16-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Stating that one's knowledge is incomplete is very different to stating that one believes that the beliefs they hold are wrong.

The first almost goes without saying in all but the most pedantic of debate situations (which admittedly is the environment in which we are often in here) and the second is a recipe for cognitive dissonance on steroids.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 12-16-2014 12:21 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 8:43 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 275 of 339 (744953)
12-17-2014 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Straggler
12-17-2014 6:04 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Stating that one's knowledge is incomplete is very different to stating that one believes that the beliefs they hold are wrong.

The first almost goes without saying in all but the most pedantic of debate situations (which admittedly is the environment in which we are often in here) and the second is a recipe for cognitive dissonance on steroids.

You totally lost me there.

How is admitting that you can say with a very high degree of certainty that your beliefs are wrong a recipe for cognitive dissonance on steroids?

Isn't that why a reasonable person tests a map against reality and does not believe the bridge is there just because the map shows one?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Straggler, posted 12-17-2014 6:04 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 12-17-2014 10:47 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 276 of 339 (744960)
12-17-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by jar
12-17-2014 8:43 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
jar writes:

How is admitting that you can say with a very high degree of certainty that your beliefs are wrong a recipe for cognitive dissonance on steroids?

Isn't that why a reasonable person tests a map against reality and does not believe the bridge is there just because the map shows one?

There is a difference--at least in my mind--between being wrong and being incomplete.

Take the belief in GOD, for example. I have a high degree of reasonable belief that GOD exists. I could well be wrong, but since I believe it, (and most certainly because I took a stand on belief versus perpetual uncertainty) my educated guess is over 50% certain that GOD exists.

I have reasons. They are personal to me.

Perhaps it is irrational of me to assign a percentage to such a question, I dont know.

I am more likely leaning towards the idea that my perception, feeling, and logic is incomplete. As I am driving up the "road" the map shows a bridge, but I can only trust my senses,emotions, and feelings. Evidence is not needed because I have driven this road many times, the weather is nice thus there is no logical reason the bridge may be out. Would you not say that my absolute knowledge of whether the bridge is intact is incomplete, rather than "likely wrong"?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 8:43 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 12-17-2014 11:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 278 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 11:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 282 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:20 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 277 of 339 (744964)
12-17-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
12-17-2014 10:47 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Phat writes:

There is a difference--at least in my mind--between being wrong and being incomplete.


What you seem to be saying is that you would rather be wrong than incomplete. You "took a stand on belief versus perpetual uncertainty" as if taking any stand is better than none at all. To paraphrase what you sometimes say, "If you don't stand for a bad idea you're liable to fall for a good one."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 12-17-2014 10:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 278 of 339 (744965)
12-17-2014 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
12-17-2014 10:47 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
Phat writes:

I am more likely leaning towards the idea that my perception, feeling, and logic is incomplete. As I am driving up the "road" the map shows a bridge, but I can only trust my senses,emotions, and feelings. Evidence is not needed because I have driven this road many times, the weather is nice thus there is no logical reason the bridge may be out. Would you not say that my absolute knowledge of whether the bridge is intact is incomplete, rather than "likely wrong"?

In the case of the bridge the reasonable and thinking position is to assume the bridge is not there until you visually confirm that the bridge is there.

When the topic turns to something that is nearly impossible to verify like the belief that there is a God then I would think the only reasonable position is to believe your concept of God is wrong.

What evidence is available?

Well there is the evidence that there have been many many concepts of gods and so far all that can be tested have been found to be false. Is there any possible reason to think your concept of god is any more accurate than any of the others?

What about the concept of "Christ"? Again, the only sources for that are the Bible stories but even there there is no single pattern but rather many often mutually exclusive ones and evidence that the Jesus mythos evolved over time.

You talk about trusting emotions and feelings but again the evidence is that those two things can and very often do override reality and truth and create falsehoods. Emotion and feelings should always be suspect.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 12-17-2014 10:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2014 12:01 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 279 of 339 (744969)
12-17-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jar
12-17-2014 11:12 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
In the case of the bridge the reasonable and thinking position is to assume the bridge is not there until you visually confirm that the bridge is there.

Options:

  1. Assume the bridge is there
  2. Assume the bridge is not there
  3. Conclude that "I don't know" until evidence observed that the bridge is there or not there

When the topic turns to something that is nearly impossible to verify like the belief that there is a God then I would think the only reasonable position is to believe your concept of God is wrong.

Options:

  1. Assume god/s exist
  2. Assume god/s do not exist
  3. Conclude that "I don't know" until evidence observed that god/s exist or not.

From a logical\rational point of view you cannot blithely assume either existence or non-existence when you have insufficient for making such a conclusion.

... what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 11:12 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:11 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 283 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 12:30 PM RAZD has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 339 (744970)
12-17-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by RAZD
12-17-2014 12:01 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
... what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???

Nothing.

But what is wrong with believing anyway and admitting that your belief is irrational and likely wrong?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2014 12:01 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 12-17-2014 12:16 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 284 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2014 1:48 PM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 281 of 339 (744971)
12-17-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Jon
12-17-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
Jon writes:

But what is wrong with believing anyway and admitting that your belief is irrational and likely wrong?


I believe the bridge is there but I acknowledge that my belief is likely wrong, so I don't try to cross it until I actually see it. How is that different from not believing the bridge is there until I see it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:11 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by xongsmith, posted 12-17-2014 3:20 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 282 of 339 (744972)
12-17-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
12-17-2014 10:47 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix
I am more likely leaning towards the idea that my perception, feeling, and logic is incomplete. As I am driving up the "road" the map shows a bridge, but I can only trust my senses,emotions, and feelings. Evidence is not needed because I have driven this road many times, the weather is nice thus there is no logical reason the bridge may be out.

You've obviously never tried crossing the Minnesota-South Dakota border.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 12-17-2014 10:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 12-18-2014 3:12 PM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32911
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 283 of 339 (744974)
12-17-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by RAZD
12-17-2014 12:01 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" but that is irrelevant to the point I was making.

jar writes:

When the topic turns to something that is nearly impossible to verify like the belief that there is a God then I would think the only reasonable position is to believe your concept of God is wrong.

"I don't know." is a great position in the absence of belief and is certainly a far more reasonable and logical position that saying "I believe" but I was discussing what can be said should someone take the position of belief.

I that case it seems that the reasonable position is to assume that your belief(s) are almost certainly wrong.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2014 12:01 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2014 1:52 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 284 of 339 (744975)
12-17-2014 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Jon
12-17-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
... what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???

Nothing.

But what is wrong with believing anyway and admitting that your belief is irrational and likely wrong?

As long as you recognize it is a belief\opinion and as long as it is not contradicted by objective empirical evidence.

And as long as you are prepared to accept contrary evidence should it become available, and change your belief\opinion, then there should not be an issue:

  1. I don't know if the bridge is there, I believe that it IS there, but I will accept evidence that it is NOT there,
  2. I don't know if the bridge is there, I believe that it is NOT there, but I will accept evidence that it IS there,

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 12:11 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Jon, posted 12-17-2014 10:39 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 285 of 339 (744976)
12-17-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
12-17-2014 12:30 PM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
"I don't know." is a great position in the absence of belief and is certainly a far more reasonable and logical position that saying "I believe" but I was discussing what can be said should someone take the position of belief.

The same as someone that takes the position of non-belief (see Message 284): as long as you acknowledge that it is an opinion\belief that may be wrong I don't see any problems.

I that case it seems that the reasonable position is to assume that your belief(s) are almost certainly wrong.

How can you have any certainty when you don't know? Having certainty is illogical\irrational without evidence that would remove the doubt of not knowing.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 12:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 12-17-2014 4:10 PM RAZD has responded

  
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