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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 316 of 339 (745938)
12-30-2014 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Theodoric
12-29-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- backup ... what?
Theodoric writes:

I think reality is progressively slipping from your grasp.

The evidence would support your assertion.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2014 10:58 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 8:42 AM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 317 of 339 (745951)
12-30-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by Phat
12-30-2014 12:52 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- backup ... what?
I would suggest getting some professional help to help you back to reality. I know religion helps you in many ways, but it can lack in dealing with persistent behavioral and mental health issues. Seeking professional help is not a weakness, it is a sign of strength. Alas, many people do not have that strength.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 12:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 12-30-2014 1:47 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:53 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 318 of 339 (745978)
12-30-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Theodoric
12-30-2014 8:42 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- backup ... what?
I have a licensed counselor. He is on the state board of problem gambling.

Through talking with him in sessions, I learn much of the research done and the methods such as The Stages Of Change Model and Rational Recovery.

He is a good therapist, but I am a stubborn old coot. I often go around the same mountain several dozen times before I realize that i'm not getting anywhere. My therapist explained the addictive pattern in the brain and much of the stuff that I share here at EvC. He even suggested medications, which I have tried in the past but reject overall--they cause harm as well as good.

Theodoric writes:

I would suggest getting some professional help to help you back to reality. I know religion helps you in many ways, but it can lack in dealing with persistent behavioral and mental health issues. Seeking professional help is not a weakness, it is a sign of strength.

Thanks for your input. I believe now that I am turning the corner on my problems.(many of them, anyway) The evidence is being gathered and quantified and is not yet in, however. Barring any relapse or other addictive behavior, my brain should begin changing back to how it is supposed to be. I need patience, accountability to health professionals, and good friends and relationships rather than just my internet ones. Thanks for your critique, though.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 8:42 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 319 of 339 (746009)
12-31-2014 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
03-14-2014 11:50 AM


Re: Psychosis and Hallucinations
Cat Sci writes:

Oh, man, I've tripped my balls off!
One time, I was sober, I was woken up in the middle of the night by some deep raspy voice speaking some weird foreign language. After I woke up, I could still hear the voice. It was coming from right above me. I sounded like some demonic spell or something. Like an incantation. Scared the shit out of me.

I sat up in bed and looked around for the source, but couldn't find one. It eventually stopped talking and that was that.

Like I said, I've tripped plenty of times. I know hallucinations that are happening "in my head". And this voice was convincingly not in my head. I heard it from outside with my ears (as opposed to that voice we all hear in our heads).

It is wise to be cautious about "still small voices". Especially if you hear them while sober.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-14-2014 11:50 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 320 of 339 (746034)
12-31-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by NoNukes
12-29-2014 11:29 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix Again -- what is wrong with saying "I don't know" ???
... and we are not 100 per cent sure our car is going to start.

Tell me about it!


Love your enemies!

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 Message 315 by NoNukes, posted 12-29-2014 11:29 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 99 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 321 of 339 (746070)
01-01-2015 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by NoNukes
12-29-2014 11:29 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix Again -- and levels of certainty
... We form an opinion that man is an evolved primate and we teach such things to children without being 100 per cent certain. ...

Wanting 100% certainty on anything is, imho, a completely unreasonable standard. The level of uncertainty we can have varies with the amount and quality of information we have.

Life requires that we act without complete information. When we are short of certainty, one logical approach is to access the probabilities and consequences for being right or wrong and to act even in the face of uncertainty. ...

I have this from former debates regarding confidence:

relative likelihood
of being real
more evidenceless evidence
Confirmingmore possibilityless possibility
Contradictingless possibilitymore possibility

These should be combined for an overall picture:

  1. when there is more confirming evidence with less contracting evidence, there is greater possibility (and more certainty) regarding it being real,
  2. when there is more contradicting evidence with less confirming evidence, there is greater possibility (and more certainty) regarding it NOT being real,
  3. when there is less confirming evidence along with less contracting evidence, there are some conflicting possibilities (and some uncertainty) regarding it being real (or not), and
  4. when there is more confirming evidence along with more contracting evidence, there are more conflicting possibilities (and more uncertainty) regarding it being real (or not).

Now the choices we make are clouded by our worldview and beliefs regarding the available evidence.

... We plan to drive to work crossing that bridge tomorrow and we are not 100 per cent sure our car is going to start.

Depending on your past experience with the bridge and the car you could have high confidence that (all things being equal) the bridge is likely to be in the same condition as you last experienced going to work, and you may have low confidence that the car will start.

Curiously I have a car with an intermittent short that drains the battery every time it rains and the car is parked. I can be pretty confident that the car won't start after a rainfall. So I have a "plan B" -- a "jump pack" battery in the trunk that I can hook up and start the car. (I keep it in the car in case I need it away from home). This works as long as the jump pack is fully charged ... and it takes about 5 extra minutes to get started.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 322 of 339 (791957)
09-27-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2014 1:50 PM


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
How would you apply critical thinking to scripture? Is there any evidence that scripture has errors? (NT only,please)
Coyote writes:

Perhaps it could be said that critical thinking is the opposite of faith?


Must it be so? Faith is based on a conclusion, however...so you may have a point.
NosyNed writes:

Critical thinking is based on the inputs and process never on the conclusion. The process leads where it leads and isn't defined by the end point.

Well...God gave us brains for a reason, I suppose.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-12-2014 1:50 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 10:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 339 (791958)
09-27-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Theodoric
12-30-2014 8:42 AM


Re: Critical Thinking Remix -- backup ... what?
Here it is two years later and my brain still has not changed yet. I am getting close, however and I do see a counselor. As I have said in several other threads, the change will happen beginning in roughly 60 more days and continue through the first of the year. Science tells us that a subject only changes when they want recovery and when they feel safe.

I dont have a job at this time, so I hope that I feel safe enough. I am taking responsibility and looking for a job, however.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2014 8:42 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 324 of 339 (791969)
09-28-2016 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Phat
09-27-2016 6:36 PM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Phat writes:

How would you apply critical thinking to scripture? Is there any evidence that scripture has errors?

That is the wrong question. What you should be asking is if there is any evidence demonstrating that it is true. That is how you apply critical thinking.

Must it be so? Faith is based on a conclusion, however...so you may have a point.

Conclusions flow from evidence. You have no evidence. You have faith.

Well...God gave us brains for a reason, I suppose.

Then why does religion ask you to shut off those reasoning skills and just believe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 09-28-2016 10:31 AM Taq has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 325 of 339 (791970)
09-28-2016 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Taq
09-28-2016 10:24 AM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Taq writes:

Then why does religion ask you to shut off those reasoning skills and just believe?

That really depends on the question asked doesn't it?

When it comes to the supernatural are there any other options than accepting things on Faith?

In other areas do all religions ask people to shut off reasoning?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 10:24 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 10:45 AM jar has responded
 Message 330 by Coyote, posted 09-28-2016 6:20 PM jar has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 326 of 339 (791971)
09-28-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
09-28-2016 10:31 AM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
jar writes:

When it comes to the supernatural are there any other options than accepting things on Faith?

That is exactly the same as believing in things that aren't true. They also have to be accepted on faith.

In other areas do all religions ask people to shut off reasoning?

If there is evidence to back a claim then it isn't called religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 09-28-2016 10:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by jar, posted 09-28-2016 12:10 PM Taq has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 327 of 339 (791972)
09-28-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Taq
09-28-2016 10:45 AM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Taq writes:

That is exactly the same as believing in things that aren't true. They also have to be accepted on faith.

It is the same process but not quite the same functionally.

Taq writes:

If there is evidence to back a claim then it isn't called religion.

Not quite true. There is evidence to back up much that is included in religion. Religion is far more complex than just the supernatural. There really is a Mount Olympus.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 10:45 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 12:17 PM jar has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 328 of 339 (791973)
09-28-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by jar
09-28-2016 12:10 PM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Not quite true. There is evidence to back up much that is included in religion. Religion is far more complex than just the supernatural. There really is a Mount Olympus.

Believing in the existence of a Mount Olympus is not a religion. Believing that there are deities who sit atop Mount Olympus is a religion.

Believing that David Koresh was a real person is not a religion. Believing that he was the second coming of Jesus is (or was) a religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by jar, posted 09-28-2016 12:10 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 329 of 339 (791977)
09-28-2016 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Taq
09-28-2016 12:17 PM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Taq writes:

Believing in the existence of a Mount Olympus is not a religion. Believing that there are deities who sit atop Mount Olympus is a religion.

Believing that David Koresh was a real person is not a religion. Believing that he was the second coming of Jesus is (or was) a religion.

True but not sure what point there is in all that. In both of those examples there actually is evidence that can be used to confirm or deny the assumption.

But that is not true in many aspects of spiritual believes; in religion.

Critical thinking is one tool that can be used to analyze such claims. Folk have climbed and explored Mount Olympus and no Gods were in residence nor was there any indication that they had ever had the presence there that was claimed. David Koresh died and the world did not experience a second coming.

But neither of those test show there will not be a second coming or that Gods do not exist.

But again, religion is far more complex than even those examples. Religions have sets of rules and guidelines, histories like any other organization, mythos. Religious mythos can be every bit as significant as national mythos or racial mythos or any cultural mythos.

Many things accepted on Faith may well turn out to have been false but equally may well serve a valuable purpose even when not confirmed.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 800 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 330 of 339 (791978)
09-28-2016 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
09-28-2016 10:31 AM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
In other areas do all religions ask people to shut off reasoning?

See the flood and young earth arguments in our other threads.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


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 Message 325 by jar, posted 09-28-2016 10:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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