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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 331 of 339 (791980)
09-29-2016 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Coyote
09-28-2016 6:20 PM


Re: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Remix<<<<<<<<<<<<
Coyote writes:

jar writes:

In other areas do all religions ask people to shut off reasoning?

See the flood and young earth arguments in our other threads.

I'm not at all sure how that is relevant. Yes, some religious sects do require the members to shut off reasoning but they are really the exception rather than the rule. Even within Christianity neither a Young Earth of literal Biblical Flood are common beliefs nor are either (as well as many other similar ideas) a requirement for belief in most Christian chapters.


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 Message 330 by Coyote, posted 09-28-2016 6:20 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 332 of 339 (880698)
08-09-2020 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-12-2014 1:16 AM


This Topic May Be Useful To Juvenissun
I started this topic way back in 2014.
I have found that my time here has been a learning experience in some ways, and a soapbox to attempt to teach others. On the one hand, I have been exposed to dialogue with some very intelligent people. On the other, I have tried time and time again to show why my belief is not in vain. My question to myself---as well as those of you who choose to dialogue with me in this topic----is whether my critical thinking skills have improved here at EvC or whether I have, in fact, merely confirmed that I am still (and forever more) a dogmatic Christian believer.
I also ask all of you what critical thinking means to you and whether or not your basic beliefs have changed since you came to this forum.

The reason that led me to peruse the archives for this topic were primarily that I saw Juvenissun engaging in the following exchange:

Forum: Geology and the Great Flood
Topic: Did the Flood really happen?
RE: Message 2087

kjsimons writes:

A world wide flood has never happened in all of the planet Earths history as far as we know. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. Note that I stipulated that you must present "evidence".


juvenissun writes:

I give you evidence, a very very strong evidence. However, you may not understand the evidence.

The evidence is: the earth has vast amount of ocean water in contrast to the mass of land.

Can you "reason" on my evidence? I don't believe you can.

Should not critical thinking be the primary tool in a science forum with which to arrive at an agreeable methodology and consensus for further testing and examination?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-12-2014 1:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 3:50 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 333 of 339 (880700)
08-09-2020 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Phat
08-09-2020 3:37 PM


Re: This Topic May Be Useful To Juvenissun
Phat writes:

The reason that led me to peruse the archives for this topic were primarily that I saw Juvenissun engaging in the following exchange:
Forum: Geology and the Great Flood
Topic: Did the Flood really happen?
RE: Message 2087

kjsimons writes:

A world wide flood has never happened in all of the planet Earths history as far as we know. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. Note that I stipulated that you must present "evidence".


juvenissun writes:

I give you evidence, a very very strong evidence. However, you may not understand the evidence.

The evidence is: the earth has vast amount of ocean water in contrast to the mass of land.

Can you "reason" on my evidence? I don't believe you can.

Should not critical thinking be the primary tool in a science forum with which to arrive at an agreeable methodology and consensus for further testing and examination?

Of course critical thinking should be used to show that once again Juvenissun simply once again posted an utterly meaningless claim.

That is a characteristic of the CCoI.

He never defines what he means or even tries to present any evidence or reasoning to support such a stupid, utterly totally and completely stupid assertion as "the earth has vast amount of ocean water in contrast to the mass of land".

What he does do is count on the trait of NOT THINKING PERIOD but rather excepting based on SOURCE that is the Hallmark of the CCoI.

What Juvenissun has done in every post at this forum is show a total inability to think at all.

Edited by jar, : so ---> show


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 3:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 4:07 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 334 of 339 (880702)
08-09-2020 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by jar
08-09-2020 3:50 PM


Re: This Topic May Be Useful To Juvenissun
I think that your public response to him is unwarranted. Forum Guidelines specifically state to ovoid personal attacks. At least let the guy post a few months before attacking his character. Which is and of itself not very Christian of you.

But getting back to this specific thread, let me go back and reread our exchanges here and comment farther.

jar writes:

Even within Christianity neither a Young Earth of literal Biblical Flood are common beliefs nor are either (as well as many other similar ideas) a requirement for belief in most Christian chapters.

But then you take evidence-based Critical Thinking too far when you use it to define a belief. As an example, what importance to you attach to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to your definition of whats important within your particular chapter of Club: Christian?

jar writes:

But again, religion is far more complex than even those examples. Religions have sets of rules and guidelines, histories like any other organization, mythos. Religious mythos can be every bit as significant as national mythos or racial mythos or any cultural mythos.

Many things accepted on Faith may well turn out to have been false but equally may well serve a valuable purpose even when not confirmed.

  • Did God serve a valuable purpose before He was "thrown away"? How about after?

  • Does Jesus serve a valuable purpose as a simple tale told around a campfire?

  • Do you agree with ringo that it is all about the message rather than the messenger?

    What critical thinking led you to the following assertions:

  • All apologists are basically liars
  • Christianity could well evolve into a secular humanist altruism, throwing Jesus away, and still maintain its brand within your club.
  • The Bible and/or bibles written were and are totally authored, edited,and redacted by humans. Human wisdom is basically all we have.

    jar writes:

    When it comes to the supernatural are there any other options than accepting things on Faith?

    In other areas do all religions ask people to shut off reasoning?

    I would imagine that we are not required to park our brains at the door. I disagree that evidence should bee the default standard in regards to spiritual claims. If it is, I will be quite satisfied with subjective evidence. I need only convince myself beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no burning need to prove to the scientific community that I am relatively of sound mind (except for that belief in the supernatural )

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 333 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 3:50 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 335 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 4:34 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33019
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 335 of 339 (880703)
    08-09-2020 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 334 by Phat
    08-09-2020 4:07 PM


    Re: This Topic May Be Useful To Juvenissun
    I'm not attacking his character Phat but rather pointing out that like all of the CCoI he has decided not to learn how to think.

    It really is that simple.

    AbE:

    It is ubiquitous to ALL of the CCoI, you included.

    Phat writes:

    Did God serve a valuable purpose before He was "thrown away"? How about after?

    This above is a great example. You have NEVER shown that you are capable of even beginning to understand what "Throw God(s) and god(s) away" even means.

    Phat writes:

    What critical thinking led you to the following assertions:

  • All apologists are basically liars
  • Christianity could well evolve into a secular humanist altruism, throwing Jesus away, and still maintain its brand within your club.
  • The Bible and/or bibles written were and are totally authored, edited,and redacted by humans. Human wisdom is basically all we have.
  • The evidence Phat, ALL of the evidence.

    No one has ever presented any evidence or a reasoned argument to show that some or any of the Apologists are not liars and conmen.

    I have never asserted the second of your bullets and in fact have said quite the opposite. Just another example of you misrepresenting what people tell you and showing you are willfully incapable of understanding what the tell you.

    And again, your third point is a conclusion based on what is actually written in the Bible.

    Edited by jar, : See AbE:

    Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 334 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 4:07 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 336 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 7:21 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14741
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 336 of 339 (880709)
    08-09-2020 7:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 335 by jar
    08-09-2020 4:34 PM


    Jar and Phat Ad Nauseum
    jar writes:

    No one has ever presented any evidence or a reasoned argument to show that some or any of the Apologists are not liars and conmen.

    You are talking about quite a large group of people. Might I just say that it is quite as likely that you yourself are (perhaps unknowingly) a liar and a conman. You drive people away from a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I have never asserted the second of your bullets and in fact have said quite the opposite.
    You have said that even if Jesus never existed and was simply a story told around a campfire the message still has value. Value to whom? Do you or do you not believe that God could care less if we even believed in "Her"? Is that not the same thing as throwing away all of the stories, apologetic marketing books and videos, human opinions, and church denominational propaganda and simply doing for the least of these?

    Just another example of you misrepresenting what people tell you and showing you are willfully incapable of understanding what they tell you.
    Again with the insults. You need the Holy Spirit, old man. You know darn well that I understand you better than anyone else at EvC (at least in regards to Christian beliefs) and if I am being willfully ignorant, it is simply resistance to what you teach. I think there is more to the story.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 335 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 4:34 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 337 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 7:35 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33019
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 337 of 339 (880710)
    08-09-2020 7:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
    08-09-2020 7:21 PM


    Re: Jar and Phat Ad Nauseum
    Phat writes:

    You are talking about quite a large group of people. Might I just say that it is quite as likely that you yourself are (perhaps unknowingly) a liar and a conman. You drive people away from a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    You may say anything you want but just as with the Apologists you have NEVER provided any evidence or reasoned argument yo support what you say.

    Phat writes:

    You have said that even if Jesus never existed and was simply a story told around a campfire the message still has value. Value to whom?

    Value to those who fo0llow Jesus message and to those who have no clothes but are clothed, are hungry and get fed, are homeless and are sheltered, are sick and get healed, are sorrowful but get comforted ...

    Phat writes:

    Do you or do you not believe that God could care less if we even believed in "Her"?

    Absolutely! GOD, if GOD exists is not such a pitiful insecure critter as to need or care if anyone believes in Her. In fact that is key to understanding why you should throw all the God(s) and god(s) away. They only exist in the minds of their believers and as soon and they lose believers they are no longer gods. Look at all the evidence about all the God(s) and god(s) you don't believe in. The god you try to market is the same; existing only in your mind.

    Phat writes:

    Is that not the same thing as throwing away all of the stories, apologetic marketing books and videos, human opinions, and church denominational propaganda and simply doing for the least of these?

    Ihave no idea but the message of Jesus repeated throughout the Red Letter New Testament writings is that we are charged to simply do for the least of these.

    Phat writes:

    Again with the insults. You need the Holy Spirit, old man. You know darn well that I understand you better than anyone else at EvC (at least in regards to Christian beliefs) and if I am being willfully ********, it is simply resistance to what you teach. I think there is more to the story.

    It's not an insult Phat but rather fact; fact you do not want to here but what you want to hear does not change reality. The difference is I still have a liitle hope that you are willing and capable of learning how to think.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 336 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 7:21 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 338 by Phat, posted 08-10-2020 12:58 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14741
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 338 of 339 (880721)
    08-10-2020 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 337 by jar
    08-09-2020 7:35 PM


    Re: Jar and Phat Ad Nauseum
    jar writes:

    You may say anything you want but just as with the Apologists you have NEVER provided any evidence or reasoned argument to support what you say.

    This is your opinion and is why you will forever be a questioning and doubting believer. Granted evidence is nearly impossible according to your standards but the fact that you see no reasoned argumentation from myself or other apologists simply shows your bias as to how YOU see Christianity within your own chosen world view.

    Phat writes:

    You have said that even if Jesus never existed and was simply a story told around a campfire the message still has value. Value to whom?

    jar writes:

    Value to those who fo0llow Jesus message and to those who have no clothes but are clothed, are hungry and get fed, are homeless and are sheltered, are sick and get healed, are sorrowful but get comforted ...

    So in other words if you do the best you can for the least of these and follow the message, it is irrelevant whether or not you can have a relationship with God. And you justify it by knowing that nobody can tell you how such a relationship is even possible, much less yourself. The deceiving spirits worked their magic well through the Socratic teachers who got you to question and doubt the party line.

    I don't yet know what caused you to despise *all* of the apologists, though. Many of them are quite good and I never read them to learn how to think yet find that I arrived at the same conclusions that they did without knowing what they were going to say. To me, this is a confirmation of truth within Biblical Christianity that we can all arrive at similar truths independently.

    And they make sense too. They just sit well with us. We will claim that it is the Holy Spirit. You will claim that we lie to ourselves and engage in fanciful thinking.

    Phat writes:

    Do you or do you not believe that God could care less if we even believed in "Her"?

    Absolutely! GOD, if GOD exists is not such a pitiful insecure critter as to need or care if anyone believes in Her. In fact that is key to understanding why you should throw all the God(s) and god(s) away. They only exist in the minds of their believers and as soon and they lose believers they are no longer gods. Look at all the evidence about all the God(s) and god(s) you don't believe in. The god you try to market is the same; existing only in your mind.

    This is the lie that you believe. You don't think its possible to even know God and defend your logic by rhetorically asking yourself how you would even know which God you were talking to (or made up).

    jar writes:

    I have no idea but the message of Jesus repeated throughout the Red Letter New Testament writings is that we are charged to simply do for the least of these.

    I have told you before that I have no problem with this aspect of your belief. The Holy Spirit impresses on my heart the charge. When I obey it, He moves through me into the lives of others. When I ignore it (Him) I feel like crap.

    Phat writes:

    You know darn well that I understand you better than anyone else at EvC (at least in regards to Christian beliefs) and if I am being willfully ignorant, it is simply resistance to what you teach.

    jar writes:

    It's not an insult Phat but rather fact; fact you do not want to here but what you want to hear does not change reality. The difference is I still have a liitle hope that you are willing and capable of learning how to think.

    Reality is not what you think. It is not confined to what science can measure and objectify. I still have a little hope that you will put aside your bias and hatred for what apologetics teaches and open your mind enough to see the evidence for yourself.

    Why cant you just accept that we might be right? What would you do if the God we "made up" actually turns out to be real? What is so threatening and distasteful about the basic apologetic message?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 337 by jar, posted 08-09-2020 7:35 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 339 by jar, posted 08-10-2020 4:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33019
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 339 of 339 (880728)
    08-10-2020 4:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
    08-10-2020 12:58 PM


    Re: Jar and Phat Ad Nauseum
    Whatever Phat.

    I cannot hold any hatred for anything as pitiful and insignificant as the Apologists. That would be a silly as me hating pond scum. And if you or any of the Apologists ever presents anything approaching evidence or some semblance of a reasoned argument I would gladly consider it.

    Edited by jar, : No reason given.

    Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 338 by Phat, posted 08-10-2020 12:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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