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Author Topic:   Christian Superhero Fred Phelps is no longer with us
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 5 of 52 (722372)
03-20-2014 4:03 PM


I wouldn't necesaarily consider Fred Phelps a Christian by his actions and words. Just saying. Nearly all Baptists, Christianity, religion and society in general rejects him and his ilk.
And please don't bring up the "not a true Scottman" argument.
Mr. Phelps and his congregation reject the heart of the Gospel and Jesus & Pauls teachings. There very behavior is the antithesis of what Jesus preached.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 4:04 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 03-20-2014 4:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 7 of 52 (722374)
03-20-2014 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
03-20-2014 4:04 PM


Good one

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 Message 6 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 4:04 PM Taz has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 52 (722398)
03-20-2014 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
03-20-2014 4:41 PM


I don't think real christians even exist.
Believe what you want.
Every one of you says every other one isn't actually a christian. Just because you don't agree with him and he makes you look bad doesn't mean you can just say "oh, well he's not actually a christian so it's not my problem".
I can say what I please thank you very much, but thanks for your vote of no-confidence.
Why, because you don't want to acknowledge that you are committing that fallacy?
I don't believe he was a Christian based on his behavior, just as much as I don't believe Jim Jones wasn't based on his behavior. If you want to believe he was, more power to you. However, God is the judge and I don't know the man's heart. I am just observing from the outside.
In that case, don't tell me I'm an asshole.
Never did, but now that you mention it
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 18 of 52 (722404)
03-20-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
03-20-2014 8:12 PM


Really Taz? Why are you trying to egg this on?
And based on the general consensus, christians hate gay people
Umm, your logic is inane. Where do you get this from? Because a few bad apples you are going to categorically state that all Christians hate gay people? Really?!?
I am a Christian and I have attended just about every denomination out there (United Methodist, Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, Christian Church, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Episcopalian and even Roman Catholic). The general consensus is that most Christians (and non-Christians) do not hate gay people. There are exceptions of course and even whole denominations that vehemently disagree with gay marriage and other issues related to this. However, the vast majority of Christians I have been around do not hate gays.
There were many nazis who didn't hate the jews. But can you tell me with a straight face that the nazis didn't hate the jews?
Your argument carries little water. You are using the Godwin Law to try to emotionally bate me. This won't work. I believe the fallacy you are using is hast generalization or biased sample. Either way you are making a generalization of people based on a small number of people. It is wrong and illogical.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 19 of 52 (722405)
03-20-2014 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
03-20-2014 8:12 PM


Well, since there really is no consensus between christian groups, we can only base on the general consensus of the majority. And based on the general consensus, christians hate gay people.
If you don't agree with this, allow me to invoke godwin's law. There were many nazis who didn't hate the jews. But can you tell me with a straight face that the nazis didn't hate the jews?
Besides, their are many gays in Christian denominations. So I guess you are saying that some gays hate themselves.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:52 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 25 of 52 (722439)
03-21-2014 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
03-21-2014 6:52 AM


You mean you've never heard of self hate gays?
There are self-hating people of all types, gay or strait. However, most people who openly say they are gay, are probably not the self-hating type.
Some are suicidal because of it. I would be too if I keep hearing shit like 'jesus loves you, but...'
Some may be. What is your point. Pin it all on Christainity as a whole? I don't get it.
You generalize away, yet when some 'Christians' do this, you attack them with verocity. Hypocritical much? Sounds like you have an axe to grind here. Not all Christians are the Jew-hating, gay-hating, racist bigots you seem to attribute them to be. In fact the opposite is true. Don't judge an entire religion by the few extremists. I don't attribute all non-believers as heathen, satanists.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 8:16 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 27 of 52 (722441)
03-21-2014 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Taz
03-21-2014 6:49 AM


Voting results of referendums prove my point. And of course your church will say they don't hate gay people. Even the KKK these days say they don't hate black people. It's not politically correct anymore.
Yes, because some people don't agree with gay marriage, they automatically hate all gay people. Your argument is illogical and factless.
And of course your church will say they don't hate gay people.
The Methodist Church has many gay members. Some denominations have gay pastors. Yes those people in those denominations really hate their gay pastors.
. Even the KKK these days say they don't hate black people. It's not politically correct anymore.
So know you are equating all of Christianity with the KKK. Classy, really classy. Next you are going to say Jesus was a gay-hating bigot. There are extremists in every religion, philosophy and world-view. Or should we use Stalin to assess atheism and non-belief. Your sword cuts two ways.
I believe in voting results.
Because looking at voting results, you can see into people's hearts and minds.
I think this is why mainstream christians didn't like FP. He said out loud what people believe but not dare to say.
And I say you are dead wrong. My wife and I don't hate gay people and we are Christians. You accuse Christians of hypocrisy bigotry, unsubstantiated and all sorts of slander. Yet you are doing the same thing you supposedly speak out against. You are a contradiction in terms.
I understand you hate Christianity for whatever reason. Fine. I get it. However, making unsubstantiated accusations and sweeping generalizations on every single Christian on the planet, is pure hypocrisy and its own form of bigotry (intolerance).
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:49 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:41 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 34 by Pressie, posted 03-21-2014 9:09 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 28 of 52 (722443)
03-21-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by saab93f
03-21-2014 8:16 AM


What is true however is that christians are reluctant to condemn the atrocities committed by other christians justifying their deeds witht the religion because by doing that theyd be somewhat condemning themselves. The same applies to the "moderate muslims" even more so.
There are many, many Christians and Christian denominations who have spoken out against Fred Phelps. Most denominations have denounced him. I am sure some of the funerals Phelp's and his church protested at, were military members and families who were Christians. Christians on this board have denounced Phelps includng Faith and others. I have never met a Christian (or a non-Christian) who has said, "The Westboro Church is doing such a great service to God and country protesting those nast gays and the funerals of those military heathens". Really, honestly, have you heard this from most Christians? No, only from the fringe extremists.
Aint it funny how predominantly xian people of the US despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity.
I do not despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity. I was at one time agnostic. My parents as well as my sister are atheists. Again, you are using a broad brush to generalize all Christians. You are doing the very thing you denouncing. Overgeneralization.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 8:16 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:42 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 33 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 9:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 31 of 52 (722450)
03-21-2014 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taz
03-21-2014 8:41 AM


Illogical? Here's the logical progression I've heard consistently from christians.
(1) It's sinful to have sex outside of marriage.
(2) Marriage is between a man and a woman.
(3) Therefore, gay sex is sinful.
(4) And because gay sex is sinful, gay people are required to live lonely lives all their lives.
Wow, what a perfect way to go around hating gay people without admitting to hating gay people. You love them, but you want to deny them the most basic human needs, the need for physical contact and the need to love. In my book, that's hate no matter how you want to put it.
Christians believe all humans uncategorically have sinned, gay or not. That is the basic premise of Christiananity.
From my experience with bigots, the first thing they tend to say is I have black friends or I have gay friends or whatever.
So now you are calling me a bigot and all Christians bigots. I am not going to entertain your obvious hatred and own bigotry to Christians. I love how some people on here employ the same behavior they speak out against.
Yes, I am equating christianity to the kkk. Just different sides on the same coin. The kkk is more direct with their hate. Christians try to be more politically correct.
Then all of humanity is one big ball of hate. Because I feel the hate you have for me and my religion. You are espousing the same thing.
Again, I believe in voting results, not some random dude on the internet. It's a travesty that the nation voted into the oval office a man that was a champion of anti-sodomy laws. And it's a sham that we still can't pass gay rights legislations without the courts.
I am not opposed to equal rights for gays. I am pro-equal human rights. Many other Christians feel the same way including Epscopalians, Methodists and others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:41 AM Taz has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 37 of 52 (722486)
03-21-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by saab93f
03-21-2014 9:07 AM


An example might be Jerry Falwell.
Jerry Falwell has been dead for quite some time. Again, not all of Christainity agrees with Fallwell, Swaggart, Bakker and the like.
Many xians (again not all) were of an opinion that he was an honest man of "The Good Book" when looking from the outside he was a horrible bigot.
I don't really think that is true. Your painting with a big brush again. Most Christians I associate with and talk to have disdain for Fred Phelps and the Westboro church. Have you seen anyone on here praising Phelps? Can you provide me evidence which supports this idea?
posted a link to justify my claims that were not directed at you but the religious community at large.
You are still overgeneralizing and oversimplifying this whole thing. It would be like me saying that all atheists and non-believers are evil, satanic baby-killers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 9:07 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 2:00 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 41 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 3:03 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 38 of 52 (722489)
03-21-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Pressie
03-21-2014 9:09 AM


Gay marriages are legal here. The Reverend Ecclesia de Lange was a Minister of a Methodist Church, who announced that she wanted to marry her live-in girlfriend. Then she got disciplined.
Yes, the United Methodist church has a position on gay marriage. They accept gays into their congregation just as with any other person. However, they do not accept gays into the ordained ministry. There is a kind of a rift in the opinions of many Methodist. Many Methodists support gay marriage (a Methodist minister in the US was defrocked because he officiated over the marriage of his gay son) i.e. the Reconciling Ministries Network and many others that do not.
Here is an excerpt on the UM's position on the matter:
As stated in the Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church, the United Methodist Church holds that "homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth." In other words, all individuals are of worth to God. Nevertheless, in keeping with historic Church teaching, it considers the "practice of homosexuality [to be] incompatible with Christian teaching," For this reason, the "United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality" or allow "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" to be "certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."
I'm not too sure how this can be explained by a lot of Christians. For her to live with her girlfriend in the official church manse was OK (even a sin, but acceptable); but for her to marry was supposedly wrong (not acceptable).
Yes, that is how the UM sees it. I am not supporting it, that is just the view of the upper level leadership of the UM.
What does who she wanted to marry have to do with anyone else, anyway?
Because according to some, marriage is a conventent to God with another person. And some believe the Bible spefically speaks against homosexuality and that it is an act that God disdains.
My own opinion, is that this matter is between those two people and God. We all are sinful, fallen creatures and it is up to him to judge, not me. JMHO.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 42 of 52 (722502)
03-21-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by saab93f
03-21-2014 3:03 PM


This time I was referring to Falwell. There were swarms of people in his funeral praising what a great character he was. There were many notables there, those you can label mainstream xians, who just flat out lied or were just polite. Honest they were not...
Global religion statistics states there are a little over 2 billion Christian adherants in the world. You have one big paint brush.
Using one televangelist to judge an entire religion. Should I use Stalin or Mao to judge all agnostics or atheists?

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 44 of 52 (722505)
03-21-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by hooah212002
03-21-2014 2:00 PM


But there is no such thing as an evil, satanic baby killing atheist, is there?
No you missed my point. The logic fallacy sword you are using against Christianity is the same one you would have to use for atheism or non-believers. I don't agree with using this logical fallacy at all. That is my point.
ARE, however, large swaths of very vocal CHRISTIANS that hate gays, vote against equal rights for gays and call them abominations.
Yes, some Christians do this, and I and many other Christians disagree with them.
you think those people aren't "real christians" so you don't have to deal with the problem
I don't know if they or not. That is between them and God. I do deal with the problem. I and many other Christians have spoken out against them. One of the major Christian periodicals "Christianity Today" speaks out against Fre Phelps (Hate and How to Overcome It Ed Stetzer on ChurchLeaders.com). Many other Christian organizations speak out against Phelps.
I am tired of this double standard and hypocrisy of a few of you on here (Christians and non-Christians). I don't generalize all non-believers or atheists and say they are all evil.
You are angry because some Christians or supposed Christians commit wrongdoing and things that are morally objectionable. I agree with this moral outrage. A lot of other Christians disagree with this behavior and feel moral outrage at Phelps.
Yet, you group all Christians together like me as in the wrong because of the actions of a segment of other Christians. Should I lump all atheists as being evil because of Stalin’s actions? Stalin, Mao and other atheists have had their share of atrocities, but I don't link you and other non-believers with them. I don't even link atheism with their behavior because religious and non-religious people have had their share of atrocities. Hypocrisy and double-standards go both ways.
though you were better than this. Your religion is showing. This sort of comment shows you to be no better than those like Faith and Fred Phelps even though you think you are.
I was showing you that I don't believe in statements such as "It would be like me saying that all atheists and non-believers are evil, satanic baby-killers." I don't agree with this. You are taking my words and twisting them. I am showing you your hypocrisy by grouping all Christians or even all religious people as agreeing or associating themselves with people like Fred Phelps and others. I am telling you, you are dead wrong. There are many of us Christians out there that disagree and despise this behavior. You chose to ignore this and build up your strawman arguments and facades of what you think all Christians behave and do. Than if anyone states that all atheists are evil, you state you can't group all non-believers with Stalin, Mao and other notorious people who espouse atheism. It is a double edge logic fallacy sword and you are stabbing yourself with it. YOU Hooah, are being as illogical as Fred Phelps and others who denounce non-believers as "evil". I am not calling you an "evil, satanic baby-killers". I don't believe that. I am pointing out your logic fallacy of ascribing all Christians with the actions of a subgroup of Christians.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 2:00 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 5:35 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 03-21-2014 7:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3215 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 49 of 52 (722529)
03-21-2014 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by hooah212002
03-21-2014 7:02 PM


That's funny because you are on record very recently as saying Phelps and Faith are not true christians.
I never said Faith was not a true Christian. I did criticize some of her behavior in another thread. That is not the same as saying she is not a Christian.
I did say I wouldn't consider Phelps a Christian based on his words and behavior but also qualified it by saying that his ultimate fate was between him and God.
it's the "they aren;t real christians" that is the problem
I don't know categorically what the state of their heart is. My point was that he and his group were conducting behavior that is not inline with Christian attributes described in the Bible. That was my whole point.
they are part of your group whether you like it or not.
Yep, he is part of your group too. He is a human being.
ANYONE can be a christian and they ARE is they say they are because none of you can get the rules right. Even the "I'm not religious, I just have a personal relationship with jesus" types. Yes, you have to own them too.
If he is a Christian by everyone's standards, that is fine. Problem is there are a lot of things Phelps did that undermines his stance as a Christian. Not by my standards but by standards as laid out in the book of rules as you state.
yes, they are christians, but they don't speak for the rest of us and we as a group should take more effort to make sure they don't represent us and make us look bad
I have no issue with this statement. Maybe I just didn't say it exactly you did. Honestly, I am in a rush alot with my posts and probably come off saying things imprecisely. The only problem with the "we as a group" is that there is no overarching Christian group that could make this statement. Very few of the denominations discuss things together as a collaborative group. That is the problem most of the time. Most Christians though that I have met disagree with Fred Phelps and his church. Many have tried to fight him legally and through other means.
For some reason it seems you may some sort of beef with me for whatever reason I am not sure.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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