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Author Topic:   Christian Superhero Fred Phelps is no longer with us
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 52 (722398)
03-20-2014 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
03-20-2014 4:41 PM


I don't think real christians even exist.

Believe what you want.

Every one of you says every other one isn't actually a christian. Just because you don't agree with him and he makes you look bad doesn't mean you can just say "oh, well he's not actually a christian so it's not my problem".

I can say what I please thank you very much, but thanks for your vote of no-confidence.

Why, because you don't want to acknowledge that you are committing that fallacy?

I don't believe he was a Christian based on his behavior, just as much as I don't believe Jim Jones wasn't based on his behavior. If you want to believe he was, more power to you. However, God is the judge and I don't know the man's heart. I am just observing from the outside.

In that case, don't tell me I'm an asshole.

Never did, but now that you mention it

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are.” - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 52 (722399)
03-20-2014 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate
03-20-2014 8:03 PM


Well, since there really is no consensus between christian groups, we can only base on the general consensus of the majority. And based on the general consensus, christians hate gay people.

If you don't agree with this, allow me to invoke godwin's law. There were many nazis who didn't hate the jews. But can you tell me with a straight face that the nazis didn't hate the jews?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-20-2014 8:03 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-20-2014 9:16 PM Taz has responded
 Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-20-2014 9:34 PM Taz has responded
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2014 2:39 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 18 of 52 (722404)
03-20-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
03-20-2014 8:12 PM


Really Taz? Why are you trying to egg this on?

And based on the general consensus, christians hate gay people

Umm, your logic is inane. Where do you get this from? Because a few bad apples you are going to categorically state that all Christians hate gay people? Really?!?

I am a Christian and I have attended just about every denomination out there (United Methodist, Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, Christian Church, Church of Christ, Assemblies of God, Episcopalian and even Roman Catholic). The general consensus is that most Christians (and non-Christians) do not hate gay people. There are exceptions of course and even whole denominations that vehemently disagree with gay marriage and other issues related to this. However, the vast majority of Christians I have been around do not hate gays.

There were many nazis who didn't hate the jews. But can you tell me with a straight face that the nazis didn't hate the jews?

Your argument carries little water. You are using the Godwin Law to try to emotionally bate me. This won't work. I believe the fallacy you are using is hast generalization or biased sample. Either way you are making a generalization of people based on a small number of people. It is wrong and illogical.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:49 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 19 of 52 (722405)
03-20-2014 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
03-20-2014 8:12 PM


Well, since there really is no consensus between christian groups, we can only base on the general consensus of the majority. And based on the general consensus, christians hate gay people.

If you don't agree with this, allow me to invoke godwin's law. There were many nazis who didn't hate the jews. But can you tell me with a straight face that the nazis didn't hate the jews?

Besides, their are many gays in Christian denominations. So I guess you are saying that some gays hate themselves.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 8:12 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:52 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 52 (722422)
03-21-2014 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
03-20-2014 8:12 PM


Christian Disapproval
I would say that most Christians hate gay behavior--that is, fleshly stimulation between two consenting adults, but they also hate that with straight people....outside the institution of marriage. I would say that most Christians would now admit that sexual attraction (gender attraction) is inborn but that sexual behavior is a choice. I could be wrong, however. Nearly all Christians would disapprove of the extreme tactics that Westboro Baptist employed, however...but it could be argued that the Christians did not do enough to censor Phelps nor condemn his behavior.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 03-21-2014 3:15 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Theodoric, posted 03-21-2014 9:11 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-21-2014 2:35 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31649
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 21 of 52 (722424)
03-21-2014 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
03-20-2014 2:38 PM


Well, no I'm not devastated, if anything I'm relieved. Never could understand what Phelps thought he was accomplishing. Also thought it a horrendous miscarriage of justice that he was allowed on the ground of free speech to harass the families of soldiers killed in action at their funerals. All our constitutional freedoms have been twisted beyond recognition however, so although I'm dismayed I'm not exactly surprised.

I'm certainly strongly opposed to gay marriage and regard homosexuality as sin, based on the Bible, but Jesus died for sinners, far from hating them, He died for my sins as well as those of gays and everybody else. While we have to uphold the Biblical understanding of sin, not cringing from calling it sin, we also have to love the sinner as Christ did and hope for their salvation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 03-20-2014 2:38 PM Taz has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31649
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 52 (722425)
03-21-2014 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Thugpreacha
03-21-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Christian Disapproval
but it could be argued that the Christians did not do enough to censor Phelps nor condemn his behavior.

This could be true. I think I've been consistent in denouncing Phelps whenever the subject has come up, but of course it would have to be church leaders who should take that role. And I'm sure many have, but they'd have to make it their life's work for anyone to notice. I'm aware of lots of issues that have some ministries working around the clock to keep the flock informed about, meaning that these days there is so much deviation in the churches that needs to be condemned it's rather hard to keep up with it all. And besides then they're open to the criticism that they are setting themselves up as the arbiters of truth, and if they define anybody as not a true Christian out comes that no true Scotsman nonsense.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2014 2:39 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 23 of 52 (722434)
03-21-2014 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by DevilsAdvocate
03-20-2014 9:16 PM


Voting results of referendums prove my point. And of course your church will say they don't hate gay people. Even the KKK these days say they don't hate black people. It's not politically correct anymore.

I believe in voting results. I think this is why mainstream christians didn't like FP. He said out loud what people believe but not dare to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-20-2014 9:16 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:19 AM Taz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(2)
Message 24 of 52 (722435)
03-21-2014 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate
03-20-2014 9:34 PM


You mean you've never heard of self hate gays? Some are suicidal because of it. I would be too if I keep hearing shit like 'jesus loves you, but...'
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-20-2014 9:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:06 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 25 of 52 (722439)
03-21-2014 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
03-21-2014 6:52 AM


You mean you've never heard of self hate gays?

There are self-hating people of all types, gay or strait. However, most people who openly say they are gay, are probably not the self-hating type.

Some are suicidal because of it. I would be too if I keep hearing shit like 'jesus loves you, but...'

Some may be. What is your point. Pin it all on Christainity as a whole? I don't get it.

You generalize away, yet when some 'Christians' do this, you attack them with verocity. Hypocritical much? Sounds like you have an axe to grind here. Not all Christians are the Jew-hating, gay-hating, racist bigots you seem to attribute them to be. In fact the opposite is true. Don't judge an entire religion by the few extremists. I don't attribute all non-believers as heathen, satanists.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:52 AM Taz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 8:16 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 876 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 26 of 52 (722440)
03-21-2014 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 8:06 AM


Not all Christians are the Jew-hating, gay-hating, racist bigots you seem to attribute them to be. In fact the opposite is true. Don't judge an entire religion by the few extremists. I don't attribute all non-believers as heathen, satanists.

You are absolutely right. Generalisations rarely hit the nail on the head. What is true however is that christians are reluctant to condemn the atrocities committed by other christians justifying their deeds witht the religion because by doing that they´d be somewhat condemning themselves. The same applies to the "moderate muslims" even more so.

Ain´t it funny how predominantly xian people of the US despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity. Way more than those of "competing" religions. What does that tell about the pious (in general)?

http://atheism.about.com/...otryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:06 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:26 AM saab93f has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 27 of 52 (722441)
03-21-2014 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Taz
03-21-2014 6:49 AM


Voting results of referendums prove my point. And of course your church will say they don't hate gay people. Even the KKK these days say they don't hate black people. It's not politically correct anymore.

Yes, because some people don't agree with gay marriage, they automatically hate all gay people. Your argument is illogical and factless.

And of course your church will say they don't hate gay people.

The Methodist Church has many gay members. Some denominations have gay pastors. Yes those people in those denominations really hate their gay pastors.

. Even the KKK these days say they don't hate black people. It's not politically correct anymore.

So know you are equating all of Christianity with the KKK. Classy, really classy. Next you are going to say Jesus was a gay-hating bigot. There are extremists in every religion, philosophy and world-view. Or should we use Stalin to assess atheism and non-belief. Your sword cuts two ways.

I believe in voting results.

Because looking at voting results, you can see into people's hearts and minds.

I think this is why mainstream christians didn't like FP. He said out loud what people believe but not dare to say.

And I say you are dead wrong. My wife and I don't hate gay people and we are Christians. You accuse Christians of hypocrisy bigotry, unsubstantiated and all sorts of slander. Yet you are doing the same thing you supposedly speak out against. You are a contradiction in terms.

I understand you hate Christianity for whatever reason. Fine. I get it. However, making unsubstantiated accusations and sweeping generalizations on every single Christian on the planet, is pure hypocrisy and its own form of bigotry (intolerance).

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 6:49 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:41 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded
 Message 34 by Pressie, posted 03-21-2014 9:09 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1265 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 28 of 52 (722443)
03-21-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by saab93f
03-21-2014 8:16 AM


What is true however is that christians are reluctant to condemn the atrocities committed by other christians justifying their deeds witht the religion because by doing that they´d be somewhat condemning themselves. The same applies to the "moderate muslims" even more so.

There are many, many Christians and Christian denominations who have spoken out against Fred Phelps. Most denominations have denounced him. I am sure some of the funerals Phelp's and his church protested at, were military members and families who were Christians. Christians on this board have denounced Phelps includng Faith and others. I have never met a Christian (or a non-Christian) who has said, "The Westboro Church is doing such a great service to God and country protesting those nast gays and the funerals of those military heathens". Really, honestly, have you heard this from most Christians? No, only from the fringe extremists.

Ain´t it funny how predominantly xian people of the US despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity.

I do not despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity. I was at one time agnostic. My parents as well as my sister are atheists. Again, you are using a broad brush to generalize all Christians. You are doing the very thing you denouncing. Overgeneralization.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 8:16 AM saab93f has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Taz, posted 03-21-2014 8:42 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded
 Message 33 by saab93f, posted 03-21-2014 9:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 29 of 52 (722448)
03-21-2014 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 8:19 AM


DA writes:

Yes, because some people don't agree with gay marriage, they automatically hate all gay people. Your argument is illogical and factless.


Illogical? Here's the logical progression I've heard consistently from christians.

(1) It's sinful to have sex outside of marriage.
(2) Marriage is between a man and a woman.
(3) Therefore, gay sex is sinful.

(4) And because gay sex is sinful, gay people are required to live lonely lives all their lives.

Wow, what a perfect way to go around hating gay people without admitting to hating gay people. You love them, but you want to deny them the most basic human needs, the need for physical contact and the need to love. In my book, that's hate no matter how you want to put it.

The Methodist Church has many gay members. Some denominations have gay pastors. Yes those people in those denominations really hate their gay pastors.

From my experience with bigots, the first thing they tend to say is I have black friends or I have gay friends or whatever.

So know you are equating all of Christianity with the KKK. Classy, really classy. Next you are going to say Jesus was a gay-hating bigot.

Yes, I am equating christianity to the kkk. Just different sides on the same coin. The kkk is more direct with their hate. Christians try to be more politically correct.

My wife and I don't hate gay people and we are Christians.

If you really don't hate gay people, you would make up the exceptions, not the rule.

Again, I believe in voting results, not some random dude on the internet. It's a travesty that the nation voted into the oval office a man that was a champion of anti-sodomy laws. And it's a sham that we still can't pass gay rights legislations without the courts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:19 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:49 AM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 03-21-2014 4:18 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 30 of 52 (722449)
03-21-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate
03-21-2014 8:26 AM


DA writes:

I do not despise, distrust and hate those who adhere to no deity.


Again, exception not the rule. Being an atheist is even more unelectable than being gay.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 03-21-2014 8:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

  
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