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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 903 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(6)
Message 486 of 1309 (727904)
05-21-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
05-21-2014 1:12 PM


Re: evidence
You, like the rest of the complaining Christians about this issue, have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't about forcing you to accept gay marriage or even support it. It is about offering the service you have agreed to offer in the public sector to all members of the public sector, regardless of who or what they are. To not offer a service that is freely offered to other people is discrimination, plain and simple, and that is not the way for a forward thinking nation to be.

Faith writes:

No, we leave them alone. It is they who come baiting us to refuse them service. They do not have to go to Christian businesses, there are plenty of others who would serve them just fine.

Where is your proof that they targeted this business? Perhaps they simply heard from a friend about their wedding cake, or saw a cake designed by this company at another wedding and wanted a similar well done service. However, once that service was denied (a service procided to any other person (and dogs in the Colorado case)) it becomes a discrimination case and they have every reason to fight that.

Faith writes:

Businesses used to have the right to refuse service, you remember the signs that said "No shoes, no shirt, no service" and "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Do you have any idea of what you are even talking about? No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service is considered a safety issue, similar to why when working in a restaurant I cannot wear open toed shoes. The origin of the rule was based upon beachside areas where surfers would come in and carry sand everywhere. "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to anyone" does not mean anyone and if you ever worked in sales, you would know that. I have been forced to serve a table on two separate occasions where the gentleman was completely tattooed in swastikas, an ideology I abhor. However, as he was not being a rude guest, he was not causing troubles for other patrons, he was not drunk or unruly, there was no legal reason that I could refuse service and my manager knew we would be sued for doing so. The sign is primarily there as a reason for cutting individuals off from alcoholic beverages or to maintain numbers below the maximum occupancy. It definitely does not cover them to refuse service to someone based on a protected class, such as sexual identity.

Source

Other source is the nine years of experience I have serving tables and the very limited amount of time (in any type of restaurant) that this right to refuse was ever used outside of cutting off alcohol service.

Faith writes:

You all turn this into a racist thing but the fact is that it hardly ever was a racist thing. In any case refusing service on the basis of race is opposed by the Bible, but Christians must refuse service when forced to support something in violation of God's law, such as gay marriage.

You are correct, it is definitely not racist, since it does not involve an individual's race. However, it is discriminatory because you are refusing a service that you would willingly offer to anyone else in the public sector. Comparisons to racism do not fall apart here because both of those situations, whether involving race or sexual identity, involved discrimination against a protected group by individuals offering goods and services in the public sector. You want to avoid baking your cakes for a gay wedding than open your cake business as a Christian only cake business. While I still find this discriminatory, I think if it is a private business you can do what you damn well please with it. Once you offer the services to everyone, it must include everyone.

Also, Christians are not being asked to approve of gay marriage. Think it is sick, twisted and wrong as much as you want, but if you offer products to the public, you do not get to pick and choose which members of the public you serve.

Faith writes:

Most folks have been sadly propagandized by political correctness for so long they haven't a clue.

While I agree that political correctness occasionally takes things too far, (I was raised on Mel Brooks movie and he would not know PC if it punched him in his Jewish nose. ) you are not complaining about political correctness. You are asking for the right to discriminate. To offer your goods and services to all members of society, except one group because your religious beliefs supersede this. Well, that doesn't change the fact that it is discrimination against a protected class and that you are not even being asked to break God's Law. I never read it in the Bible that thou shalt not make a cake for two men entering a loving and committed relationship together. Sure, God's law tells you not to be gay (not that that matters, since most Christians find other things in the Bible they aren't supposed to do, but do them anyway) but nowhere does it say not to offer your services to them equally.

Faith writes:

And there's the propaganda. I'm sure it convinces you and all those other folks you mention, which merely means you are going to be the persecutors when push comes to shove. Like everyone else on this thread you also prefer terms that misrepresent the case. "Offends me?" No, offends God, is a violation of God's law. Has nothing whatever to do with me personally. If I'm a Christian I refuse to have a part in violating God's law. So "society" will just have to throw me in the dungeon.

Who cares if it offends God? First off, you cannot choose to make your religion more important than others (or lack thereof) in this secular society. Your religion does not get special treatment. You have the right in your churches to refuse to marry gay people, and while I don't agree with that stance, I will be one of the first to defend it for your group. However, when it comes to state issued marriage licenses, your religion has nothing to say on the topic. First off, many Christian religions do not even recognize a state performed marriage as valid in God's eyes. It is not a religious ceremony, have you ever been to a non-religious wedding? There is nothing there to offend God because God is not even involved and he/she/it should not be. The individuals are being married by the secular state, not the religious. Your martyr complex is ridiculous and if some agent of the state tried to jail you for refusing service, I would claim they had overstepped authority. However, allowing the individual you discriminated against to recoup some damages from you....nothing wrong with that, it was your hatred and bigotry that caused you to be punished for a decision to knowingly discriminate against someone because of who they are.

Faith writes:

Yeah you've all been pushing this line for the whole thread. You ARE attacking Christian beliefs and that's all this is all about in the end. We oppose gay marriage so we're being set up to act on it and be persecuted for it, having OUR freedoms violated, but that doesn't matter, only gay freedoms matter, not Christians.' Gay marriage is a violation of God's law. Also of common sense, but common sense no longer exists. Homosexuals are just a species of sinner, they are not a special human class, but you have made them into that so now you can persecute those who rae of a different opinion. The devil has done his work SO well, one does really have to admire his effectiveness at bamboozling the human race.

We are not attacking Christian belief, because we explicitly say..."Believe what you want and think what you want" However, if you want to act on those thoughts, remember that you began a business in the public sector to offer goods and services to individuals in society. These individuals, whether you agree with their views or not, are free to make their own choices, which do not have to coincide with your beliefs. There is no requirement for them bow to the line in the sand Christians are trying to draw. If they are getting married (since it is legal in the state where these cases occurred), then any bakery that offers its services to the public sector must be willing to provide that service for law-abiding citizens. Otherwise, get out of the public sector and create some private company where you can discriminate to your heart's content. But....a rose by any other name is still a rose, and discrimination, whether in the name of Christianity or racism, is still discrimination.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 5:46 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 903 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1232 of 1309 (748204)
01-23-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Dr Adequate
01-23-2015 1:05 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr A writes:

But he's doing it, and rather well. He wants a cake that expresses his deeply-held religious beliefs. If he is refused, he is being discriminated against because the owners of the cake shop don't like his religious beliefs. There is apparently a law in Colorado protecting him from that. I say that this law goes too far.

Won't the fact that she offered a pastry bag and frosting for him to add the offensive slogans onto the cake himself show that she was still willing to provide services, but not breach her own personal ethics. It seems like this baker is going out of her way to still provide the service in a fashion that could be mutually beneficial. He receives the products he paid for, including the means to add any slogans he wishes with the frosting provided and she is making a sale without having to sacrifice her ethical viewpoint. This seems in complete counterpoint to the instances of bakeries refusing to bake a cake for a same sex marriage. In those cases, they suggest the couple go to another bakery, while in this case the woman still worked to find a solution that would work for both parties involved.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-23-2015 1:05 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

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