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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 73 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 958 of 1309 (741873)
11-15-2014 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 953 by Tangle
11-15-2014 8:54 AM


I sometimes wonder what century you live in. I believe you're 70ish? You wouldn't be out of place in the 17th century.

Faith probably would be out of place in the 17th century; that was the time of King Charles II and Nell Gwyn, of King James II and Arabella Churchill, to say nothing of the future Queen Anne and the Duchess of Marlborough. It was also the time of 'The White Devil' by John Webster, 'Women Beware Women' by Thomas Middleton, and ''Tis Pity She's A Whore' by John Ford. No, keep Faith in the 20th and 21 centuries; she's much safer here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2014 8:54 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 960 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2014 10:53 AM Astrophile has not yet responded

  
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 73 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


(2)
Message 978 of 1309 (741921)
11-15-2014 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 953 by Tangle
11-15-2014 8:54 AM


I sometimes wonder what century you live in. I believe you're 70ish? You wouldn't be out of place in the 17th century.

In my previous reply, I forgot to mention King James I and VI, who gave his name to the 1611 translation of the Bible. King James was notorious for his fondness for handsome young men, particularly Robert Carr (later Earl of Somerset) and George Villiers (later Earl and then Duke of Buckingham). The king's defence of his affair with Villiers is worth quoting; he said:

quote:
I, James, am neither God nor an angel, but a man like any other. Therefore I act like a man, and confess to loving those dear to me more than other men. You may be sure that I love the Earl of Buckingham more than anyone else, and more than you who are here assembled. I wish to speak in my own behalf, and not to have it thought to be a defect, for Jesus Christ did the same, and therefore I cannot be blamed. Christ had his John, and I have my George'.

As for Robert Carr (the Earl of Somerset), in 1616 (five years after the publication of the King James version of the Bible) his career blew up in one of the most lurid scandals in English history when he and his wife (formerly Frances Howard) were tried for the murder of Sir Thomas Overbury. The scandal had everything: murder, adultery, homosexuality, black magic, perjury, and allegations that the king himself was an accessory. The story is told in all its horrifying detail by Anne Somerset in her book 'Unnatural Murder'.

No, if you were looking for high standards of sexual morality, the 17th century was not a good time to live. And yet, it was when Britain and Ireland were ruled by such a king, and when men and women of the character of George Villiers, Robert Carr and Frances Howard were being raised to the peerage that God supposedly bestowed on England the gift of the King James version of the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2014 8:54 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 981 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 4:34 PM Astrophile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 985 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 4:50 PM Astrophile has responded

  
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 73 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 1036 of 1309 (741999)
11-16-2014 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by Faith
11-15-2014 4:50 PM


Here's a page of quotes that should raise some doubts about the common accusations of King James VI and I.
ABE: And here's another page of helpful links. /ABE

First, on the life and character of King James, I think that J.P. Kenyon's book 'The Stuarts' is more reliable than the 'jesus-is-lord' website.
Second, I notice that you did not mention the Overbury murder or the trial of the Earl and Countess of Somerset for the crime.
Third, can you think of any reason why Robert Carr was made Earl of Somerset and George Villiers was made Earl of Buckingham at the age of 25 and Duke of Buckingham - 'the only dukedom granted outside the blood royal between 1485 and 1660' - at 31, other than their being the king's catamites. Neither man possessed the sort of ability that would merit such promotions.
Fourth, we have the correspondence of Buckingham and King James, which is almost too explicit to quote here. Two examples will be enough.

From Buckingham to James, July 1624:

quote:
'the time I shall never forget at Farnham, where the bed's head could not be found between the master and his dog'

From James to Buckingham, shortly before Christmas 1624:

quote:
'that we may make at this Christenmass a new marriage, ever to be kept hereafter; for, God so love me, as I desired only to live in this world for your sake, and that I had rather live banished in any part of the world with you, than live a sorrowful widow-life without you. And so God bless you, my sweet child and wife, and grant that ye may ever be a comfort to your dear dad and husband.'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 4:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 11:56 AM Astrophile has responded
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 12:44 PM Astrophile has responded

  
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 73 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 1221 of 1309 (742640)
11-22-2014 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Faith
11-16-2014 11:56 AM


The letter to Buckingham supposedly calling him "wife" is just odd. abe: For him to mention God loving him in a letter to a homosexual lover makes NO sense at all. It sounds like a letter he would have written to his wife Anne that got misattributed to Buckingham, and how that might have happened raises all kinds of strange questions about the integrity of somebody in this saga. /abe.

Queen Anne died in March 1619, more than five years before the date of this letter. Being in the same situation myself, I accept that a widower might write letters to his wife; my late wife is often in my thoughts, and I suppose that I might put my thoughts on paper in a letter to her. However, King James's letter looks to me like something written to a living person, not to somebody who has been dead for several years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Astrophile
Member (Idle past 73 days)
Posts: 80
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


Message 1222 of 1309 (742641)
11-22-2014 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by Faith
11-16-2014 12:44 PM


The Wikipedia article on Buckingham has him saying he only lives in the world for James, not the other way around as you have it.

Perhaps the feeling was mutual.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 11-16-2014 12:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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