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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 3 of 1309 (722727)
03-24-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Rights versus Responsibilities
lokiare writes:

Is homosexuality a choice or is it some biological process.

Both. As a believer, I think that homosexual gender attraction is not a choice. It is also not a sin. It just is.

Homosexual behavior, however, is a choice.

The debate centers on rights vs. responsibilities.

I can understand the secular argument that in essence says that no religion nor belief should legislate human morality. So in that context, and on behalf of a secular government, I advocate choice, consensus, and personal responsibility regarding behavior within society.

As a believer, I will say that I believe that many inborn traits of humanity....whatever they may be...are something we are born with, but have a responsibility to control.

If humans simply behaved according to biological urges, we wouldn't have that good of a society.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lokiare, posted 03-24-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 89 of 1309 (722937)
03-25-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:14 PM


Re: Rights versus Responsibilities
I can speak from personal experience.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:14 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(4)
Message 174 of 1309 (723034)
03-26-2014 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by lokiare
03-25-2014 8:54 PM


Re: Rights versus Responsibilities
In my experience, a few years of therapy allowed me to open up and grow as an individual. I became affectionate towards all people rather than just one gender, but the attraction to the initial gender remained. You cant "shock" somebody into being attracted to anything different from what they were previously attracted to.

They may choose to ignore those feelings and not act upon them, but the feelings never go away---at least in my experience. A search of the internet on these topics leads to conclusions both pro and con in this area.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 8:54 PM lokiare has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 535 of 1309 (728054)
05-23-2014 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by frako
05-22-2014 3:13 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
This is where people get it wrong. Attraction is not a choice. Love is not a choice. Physical actions and sex are a choice.

Just because you love the guy doesnt mean you need to marry him. Thats a cultural expectation.

Im not against the legal right to do so, however. Im just pointing out that there is no need for marriage. Love involves responsibility more than it does "rights."


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(3)
Message 811 of 1309 (741148)
11-10-2014 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by frako
11-10-2014 6:05 AM


Pleasing The All Smitey
frako writes:

So when do you think gods wrath is coming ...

Gods wrath will come the day that I stop trying to do my best, love others, and represent hate instead of love. Christians now live in an age of grace and have no business running around like Old Testament prophets warning people to shape up. If God were intent on smiting people, we all would have already been smited...since none of us are without sin and/or shortcomings...and God would have erased us and started over.

One thing I like about you frako is that you have a sense of humor. Keep trying to do your best.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by frako, posted 11-10-2014 6:05 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 828 of 1309 (741308)
11-11-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Faith
11-11-2014 6:26 AM


Sins Of A Nation
Faith writes:

But I haven't condemned any homosexual or anyone for their sin, that is not what I'm arguing here. The argument is about what the nation does, not what individuals do.

So in essence are we talking about "national" behavior and "national" sin?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 6:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:30 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1039 of 1309 (742009)
11-16-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by dwise1
11-16-2014 2:07 AM


Majority and Minority
I feel that I should step into this debate, as I am a Christian in good standing with my church.

dwise1 writes:

We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

I have a same gender attraction. I was born with it and it will not change--though I have found as I get more mature that I am also becoming attracted to both women and older people...though not in a passionate or lustful way. Do I consider it a sin? Yes, I do consider the lust a sin. I also consider it a sin for a heterosexual to lust after women. Excessive lust for anything other than God is a sin, in my belief. Lust for pride is a sin. Of having to always be right and to win every debate. LUst for money and/or power is a sin. Sin exists in our society, in my belief.

That being said, I also believe in the freedom of our constitution. I believe, in essence, that people have the right to free speech and--dare I say it---freedom to lust after anything their little hearts desire. May they end up in Hell? I really don't know...this is an issue between them and their Creator or higher conscience. To quote GK Chesterson:

quote:
“The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog.” – Broadcast talk 6-11-35

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 2:07 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1099 of 1309 (742111)
11-17-2014 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by Faith
11-15-2014 8:18 AM


The Public Square
Faith,responding to vimesay writes:

Just out of curiosity, what should be done with those of us who will go on saying that homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by God if the person doesn't repent and turn to Christ, and that gay marriage is a violation of God's laws that can only bring His judgment against a nation? Or any form of preaching the gospel of Christ and Biblical truth in the public square for that matter. According to your way of construing all this will we continue to have that right or be punished for it?

In essence, a public forum such as this one is todays modern version of a "public square". You and I (and jar and Percy and all of EvC) have the right of free speech. As the "owner" of this forum, Percy has the basic right to censor,suspend, or reprimand any member which he feels is not contributing to the discussion in a positive manner.

In a larger context, the issue that I feel is being discussed is religious beliefs, personal conscience, the rights of individuals, the responsibility of individuals(perhaps the responsibility of Christian individuals as well as the rights of same) and the best way to present our arguments in this "online public square".

Lets get back to rights and responsibilities.

Percy also has a basic responsibility to allow free speech even if it is illogical, perhaps discriminatory, or self serving. He has, in my opinion, been most generous in this regard.

You and I, as Christians, have a basic responsibility to share the good news that we know in our hearts in a rational,calm, and consistent manner. Granted we are human---we get carried away with arguments and quarrels because in an inner sense we sometimes feel as if we are being persecuted for our beliefs--but---to be frank---no blood has yet been spilled, either literally or figuratively. (though we could claim that the Blood of Jesus has been spilled already and that this is indeed good news! )

Now about homosexuality as a sin. In my belief, there is a difference between what I believe in church and in my personal life as opposed to the responsibilities of a secular state and nation.

Quite frankly, Faith...I believe that just as God allowed humans to become evil initially...(thus allowing free will) we should allow the nation to freely decide its own laws and secular behavior. It may not be the Theocracy that many want..it is a secular nation--but in my belief this is the way that social progress can be made. Jar and others have a point when they say that Christians have been silent participants in cultures of the past that discriminated against various minorities.

Some could even argue that by us as Christians defining sin, we are in essence attempting to legislate our beliefs and morality on others who openly recognize no such thing as sin.

My point is simply this. Lets use our rights of free speech in public squares...be they actual or be they virtual internet ones such as EvC Forum...and lets represent our beliefs with integrity, honesty, and kindness towards others who may at best disagree with us and at worst seek to slander and vilify us. (keep praying and asking God for wisdom as you formulate your responses in this public square)


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Faith, posted 11-15-2014 8:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1100 of 1309 (742112)
11-17-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by dwise1
11-16-2014 6:41 PM


The Evolution Of Human Social Interaction
dwise1 writes:

We do not live under any form of Christian Sharia Law (and may we never!), but rather under the Constitution of the United States of America and the laws derived therefrom. We live under a concept of inalienable human rights, a concept that a branch of Calvinism, the Christian Reconstructionists (who wanted to transform America into an Old Testament theocracy and who were the political inspiration and mentors of the Radical Religious Right), denounced as having been invented by Satan, along with other heresies such as democracy and religious liberty (of which one Reconstructionist wrote that Reconstructionists should invoke their religious liberties constantly in order to eventually deprive all others of theirs).
Human rights are not subject to the vote of the majority. Human rights are not subject to sundry other individuals' own peculiar convictions and religious beliefs. The laws of the land are not subject to your own nor anybody else's "God's Law", but rather to the Constitution of the United States of America, under which laws cannot be made for purely religious reasons. That is why such laws (eg, the "monkey laws", laws banning same-sex marriage) are found to be unconstitutional. The only reasons for laws banning same-sex have been found to be purely religious.

I can't disagree with your assessment. Some will disagree, claiming that they want America to become (or remain) a Christian Nation. My personal belief is that we all have the right to become Christian(or atheist or Muslim or fill-in-the-blank individuals but that we live in a secular society and always will. I strongly support free speech, however. Carry on....


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 6:41 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1198 of 1309 (742333)
11-19-2014 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1195 by Faith
11-18-2014 6:16 PM


Re: Just Wait a Bit
faith writes:

I'm an American at heart, very sad to see her go, and it will be hard to take the vitriol of the "progressives" but I expect to go through it.

What would really be horrible is if America gets wiped out financially---is poor and destitute---and the rest of the world begins being wealthier and more successful...all the while denying God. Will the U.S. Christians be humble at this point or will they turn angry and insist on bringing back patriotism rather than Jesus...

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1195 by Faith, posted 11-18-2014 6:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1199 by Faith, posted 11-19-2014 3:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1200 of 1309 (742340)
11-19-2014 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by Faith
11-19-2014 3:51 AM


Re: Just Wait a Bit
I used to be certain that we were in the "last days". Now? I won't say what I believe except to say that some of the people will get reallly into Jesus and spirituality while the educated elite will be convinced that we are nuts and a danger and threat to society. Im not as fundamentalist as you, Faith...I agree that many christians are haters and bigots...but I also believe that Jesus is God and that logic, reason, and reality by itself wont be enough to pull humanity out of the growing spiritual crises.

I foresee many people saying that our charismania is a threat to the growth and recovery of global society once they get into this next big depression....and I don't want to be a doomsayer....but I think that what you see as persecution now is nothing compared to what will happen globally then. They will declare that "religious zealots" are a stumbling block to human progress.

To all of you who have faith in human wisdom alone: I wont say you are wrong, but I will say that the only real hope for society is knowing Jesus Christ. Not Jesus the fumbling human...as is incorrectly portrayed by some---but by Jesus the only hope for humanity.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by Faith, posted 11-19-2014 3:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12564
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1201 of 1309 (742341)
11-19-2014 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1196 by jar
11-18-2014 6:38 PM


Re: Try truth Faith
jar writes:

The majority is not against Christians but against bigotry, hate and the brand of Christianity you try to market.

I will agree that many christians are bigoted and hateful. We do need to repent and try our best to improve these sins and faults. I will say one thing, however. People cannot live and do as Jesus the "living example" did if we see him as only human. Jesus is how GOD relates to ants. Jesus is living and alive today. Ants will never rebuild society alone. They need to be responsible, I will admit. They need to be balanced and accountable. They need to try to do their best. Admit when they are wrong. And turn from it. They will never do this on human strength alone...

You always taught that asking Jesus into your heart was silly. A way to avoid personal responsibility and let God do everything. You had one thing right, however. Being saved is an everyday thing. It is not a quick nor easy fix. It is not a way to avoid responsibility. My point is, you will never be able to do your best nor try your hardest on your own strength. You need communion.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 6:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 8:41 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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