Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-15-2019 11:55 PM
32 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: lopezeast0211, Theodoric
Post Volume:
Total: 856,807 Year: 11,843/19,786 Month: 1,624/2,641 Week: 133/708 Day: 67/66 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234567Next
Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 292 of 1309 (727259)
05-16-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
05-16-2014 4:48 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Maybe they should have followed their consciences then.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 4:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 4:55 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 296 of 1309 (727264)
05-16-2014 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
05-16-2014 4:55 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

Excuse me? The point is they did.

It seems pretty obvious to me that they didn't, and that's the problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 4:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 5:04 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 299 of 1309 (727268)
05-16-2014 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Faith
05-16-2014 5:04 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Well let's try this. Their action was in a purely secular arena with no religious component. According to the Bible, Christians are supposed to follow the secular law in such cases, are they not ?

Christians are not commanded to avoid associating with sinners, so that is not an issue either.

Work done for hire does not exactly involve approving of the event - and the event itself is not significantly against Christian morality anyway. From a Christian point of view, demonstrating love for the outcast would seem clearly preferable to contributing to the attempts to cast them out.

Finally, any objection to the law very much needs to understand the origin and purpose of the anti-discrimination laws.

So it seems to me that their behaviour was clearly wrong and unChristian and therefore should be against their conscience. If they were really Christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 05-16-2014 5:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 305 of 1309 (727326)
05-17-2014 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
05-17-2014 11:41 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

No I do not. Laws that directly oppose God are not to be obeyed

And how does this law "oppose God" ?

quote:

All this is going to do is persecute decent people, probably eventually send them to prison. But that's the way the country is going

Decent people wouldn't be breaking that law in the first place.

quote:

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

No, I do not have to be subject to laws that contradict God's word.


The verses you quoted say that if you go against the secular law, you are going against God. You really should try to read the Bible more. Preferably a translation in a more modern English that you might find easier to understand.

Romans 13 NASB


Be Subject to Government

13 Every (a)person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except (b)from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore (c)whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for (d)good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Footnotes:

a. Romans 13:1 Or soul
b. Romans 13:1 Lit by
c. Romans 13:2 Lit he who
d. Romans 13:3 Lit good work

Seems pretty clear. You should obey the government, and the government has the right to punish evil. So I guess that any real Christian would happily obey this law.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 11:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 3:45 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 312 of 1309 (727351)
05-17-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Faith
05-17-2014 3:40 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

Gay marriage is not acceptable but heterosexual marriage of course is.

It seems that Jesus would disagree with the idea that all heterosexual weddings are acceptable. See Mark 10:11-12


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 3:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 3:49 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 319 of 1309 (727420)
05-18-2014 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by Faith
05-17-2014 3:49 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

I agree so I would limit the heterosexual weddings too.

I've got to admit that I was pleasantly surprised to see you agreeing with the Gospels. I expected you to damn it as a Catholic doctrine (since Protestant churches in general do NOT follow it), and drag up commentaries that disagree.

But that really raises the question of why people who are happy to have their Churches perform equally sinful marriages are so obsessed with gay marriage and homosexuality in general. I would not be surprised if the bakers in question would be happy to knowingly bake a cake for such a wedding (unless they're Catholic, and even then they might).

And given that the arguments against gay marriage are riddled with dishonesty, it' shard for me to see the opposition as having any moral basis at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 3:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 9:59 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 321 of 1309 (727432)
05-18-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
05-18-2014 9:59 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
But it's not just that they happen to ignore it. To focus on other people' skins while neglecting your own is not a Christian attitude at all. And yet this is exactly what we see in the fuss over gay marriage. Even without the many lies it would be a bad state of affairs.

quote:

How this all plays out in the bakery, however, depends on whether the baker's conscience is engaged in conspiring to support a sinful act, and our conscience only condemns what we believe to be sinful, so those who don't think remarriage is sinful won't have their conscience engaged even if they are aware of the particulars.

Doing an honest and legal job for hire hardly constitutes conspiracy. And agan, as the verses you quoted from Romans state Christians should obey the civil authorities, too. From a Biblical perspective those bakers were sinning more in their refusal than in actually doing the work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 9:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 10:52 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 325 of 1309 (727441)
05-18-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
05-18-2014 10:52 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
That clearly doesn't apply as I have already argued - without any rebuttal on your part.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 10:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 331 of 1309 (727454)
05-18-2014 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
05-18-2014 11:12 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

Gay marriage is a horrific violation of God's Law

Is it ? And even if it was, those bakers weren't being asked to marry somebody of the same sex, so they wouldn't be violating such a law even if there was one.

quote:

To do anything to support it is a horrific sin and violation of a Christian's conscience.

I hardly think that baking a cake for a gay wedding constitutes a horrific sin. And if you want to argue otherwise, then you need an actual argument.

quote:

Laws that support gay marriage must be disobeyed by Christians in these cases set up by provocateurs to force us to act against God.

In other words you put bigotry and hate before obedience to God. Well, that's your problem. Maybe you should be a real Christian and start repenting of your own sins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 11:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 11:28 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 334 of 1309 (727461)
05-18-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Faith
05-18-2014 11:28 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

What you think is irrelevant. If a Christian's conscience is violated he must obey his conscience, not yours.

By which you mean that in your "Christian" opinion, bigotry is more important than following the law - as Romans 13 commands.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 11:28 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 12:43 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 336 of 1309 (727471)
05-18-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
05-18-2014 12:43 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

Well, you know, you can always have us fined for our "bigotry," that's the point of this whole set-up, that your opinion be allowed to trump ours.

Well, now it's just your opinion. I would think that in matters of "horrific sin" God would offer rather more guidance than ignorant opinions of bigots who don't even understand the purpose of the law they're refusing to follow.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 12:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 1:22 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 345 of 1309 (727482)
05-18-2014 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
05-18-2014 1:22 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

You set it up to be a matter of opinion, not I

I think not. In the absence of anything objective - and you've refused to provide anything - then you were relying on opinion from the start.

quote:

Your opinion of what the Bible means being completely different from mine.

Which is why you can't find the Biblical support for your position ?

quote:

No more freedom of opinion is the point.

You seem to miss the point that the law penalises ACTIONS not opinions.

quote:

I can be fined for mine

No, you can be fined for breaking the law. Having an opinion is not against the law.

quote:

I think this is how it started in Nazi Germany too. Gradual diminishment of citizens' rights for those targeted by the powers that be.

Actually it started with bigots persecuting minorities. Like Jews - and gays.

quote:

You're on the right side though, you can be happy when the Christians, nasty evil bigots, haters and hypocrites we are, get our just desserts. Oh and we're cockroaches and vermin too, subhuman like the Jews and the Slavs and the Tutsis.

Just your usual bullying, whining, lying and slandering your opponents. In reality the law is there to FIGHT that sort of persecution. Maybe that's the reason why you oppose it.

quote:

You can also join the gay rights people in throwing bricks through the windows of Christian businesses, I'm sure that's coming eventually.

It's more likely to be "Christians" throwing bricks through the windows of gay businesses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 1:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:06 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 349 of 1309 (727496)
05-18-2014 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
05-18-2014 3:06 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

Of course ACTING on my opinions is what I mean. Obviously.

Unfortunately there is no "of course" about it. It's the sort of lie you would tell.

quote:

Funny Christians have never thrown bricks through anybody's windows all the time we've supposedly been "in power" in America.

I don't believe that's true. People who challenge Christian dominance in some communities can be subjected to some pretty nasty harassment.

quote:

It's the ones in power who organize the brickthrowing, the Krystallnacht stuff you know.

Unfortunately that's only sometimes the case. Mob violence doesn't need the authorities to lead it.

quote:

It's clear that if Christians can be fined for ACTING ON our Biblical views we are not the ones in power.

That's an oversimplification. Not that your actions are Biblical anyway. But the reason that you can be find is that the USA was founded as a secular state and there are still judges with an eye for the law and justice. If you look you can find plenty of "Christian" abuses.

And what about the big fuss over hate crimes legislation ?

quote:

Well, you've got us "bigots" where you want us and your palpable hatred will certainly find a brick to pick up eventually.

I'll take that as an admission that you intend to resort to violence, since you're one of the most hate-filled people I've ever met.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:21 PM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 352 of 1309 (727500)
05-18-2014 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Faith
05-18-2014 3:21 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

That's called projection. Hatred drips from your every pore.

ROFL ! That's so meta! You're projecting projection !

Just to remind you, I'm not the one demanding the right to discriminate, you are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 355 of 1309 (727505)
05-18-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
05-18-2014 3:39 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
quote:

PaulK's hatred is palpable.

Your lack of self-awareness is truly amazing.

quote:

And it probably IS "rationality" that opposes my BIBLICAL position on GAY MARRIAGE --not "gays," but "gay marriage." That's the subject here, that's the cause of the Christian baker's being fined, and the Christian photographer. Gay MARRIAGE, not "gays."

Odd how you can't find this "BIBLICAL" viewpoint in the Bible, isn't it ?

quote:

This is being punished for having a Biblical viewpoint, utterly against the founding freedoms of this nation. Maybe you UK people are so far gone into tyrannical political correctness you don't know anything about real freedoms any more, but America is going in the same direction.

Of course you aren't being punished for "having a viewpoint". But once the principle of anti-discrimination legislation is accepted, justice demands that gays receive that protection. But you don't discuss that, either.

quote:

Clearly you are all in favor of this tyranny. I thought some of you might pull back somewhere in my attempt to make you see yourselves as the Nazis you really truly are, but no, you're farther gone than even I had imagined.

Viciously slandering people is generally a poor way to convert them to your point of view.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
1
234567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019