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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 17 of 1309 (722801)
03-25-2014 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
03-25-2014 6:20 AM


homosexuals do not reproduce, period.

With other homosexuals of the same sex - obviously not.

Through surrogacy, time spent (for whatever reason) in heterosexual relationships, communal relationships, bisexuality - sure they do.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 03-25-2014 6:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 03-25-2014 7:28 AM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(3)
Message 23 of 1309 (722811)
03-25-2014 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
03-25-2014 7:28 AM


Oh, I am following the argument, but I'm not making the mistake which you're making in confusing homosexuality with sexual acts.

Homosexuality is sexual attraction towards your own sex. That is what we don't have a choice in - our sexual attraction to someone.

Where we do have a choice is in whether or not we perform a sexual act. I can be sexually attracted to someone and choose not to do something about it (being the faithful sort that I am). Equally, I can choose to do something sexual with someone I'm not attracted to. That choice will not affect in the slightest my sexuality - the people to whom I'm attracted.

Homosexual people have throughout history had heterosexual sex - often to avoid persecution, sometimes to have children. But throughout it all, they remain homosexual and attracted to their own sex. We can all choose to perform or not perform a sexual act - none of us can choose our sexual orientation.

Consequently, it is possible to reproduce as a homosexual - through surrogacy, or the choice to have heterosexual sex. You still stay homosexual.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 03-25-2014 7:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 6:47 PM vimesey has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(5)
Message 208 of 1309 (723153)
03-27-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
03-27-2014 7:44 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Pretending there is no such thing as sin is not love; pretending there is no such thing as God's judgment for sin is not love; pretending that there is no such thing as Hell is not love; pretending that sinners can go on sinning without having to worry about any of that, which lulls people to sleep on the edge of the abyss when they need to be warned instead, is not love.

But so much further removed from love than any of that, is treating someone as less than you, because they are different from you.

I can think of nothing more generous, loving, giving and caring than a Christian fundamentalist saying "you know what, I may disagree with what you do, I may think it's a sin, but it hurts no one else, it's your life, have a fabulous wedding, here's your cake." Now that would be love for your brother !


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 7:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 8:51 AM vimesey has responded
 Message 223 by Larni, posted 03-27-2014 2:24 PM vimesey has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(3)
Message 211 of 1309 (723159)
03-27-2014 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
03-27-2014 8:51 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
I have never said nor implied nor thought nor felt that anybody is less than I because different than I

But I said "treated" as less. You are supporting the ability of certain people to treat homosexuals as less than non-homosexuals, by refusing to serve them. I do not see how you can characterise that as anything other than treating them as less than you (as in "less than the person refusing to serve them"). That is certainly and absolutely how the person who has just been refused service will feel.

It just doesn't work that way.

Sure it does. Take one for the team - say to yourself, "maybe the type of Christian morality which I have found will be offended, and I may feel uncomfortable about it, but I will bear my discomfort, and give joy, love and respect to my fellow human being, the big lug !"


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 8:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(3)
Message 256 of 1309 (726950)
05-14-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
up to the 30s in our Nazi/fascist growth trajectory

You guys on the conservative right really must stop branding everything you disagree with as fascist. It does nothing for the argument, and just makes you appear tedious and uninformed to an intelligent audience. If we live in any society, any society at all, there will be times when each person's freedom to do exactly what they want is curtailed. That's not fascism - it's a consequence of living with folks who have different opinions from ours. We call it tolerance, not fascism.

Homosexuality is a sin, it is not a race or a class of people

Most people in our civilised societies disagree with you. We don't believe it's a sin, and we can see homosexual people as a class of people worth protecting. We don't think any homosexual person should be made to feel shit and second class by someone saying they think they're a sinner and should therefore be entitled to treat them as less than them. That's shitty. If treating someone like a full, decent human being is a violation of your conscience (which basically just means you don't like it), then do the decent, kind, thoughtful, dare I say Christian thing, and suck it up and serve them their cake.

This is an anti-Christian movement.

Rubbish. It's a movement to ensure that a group of human beings aren't treated like shit by their fellow human beings. Christians (and anyone else) can continue to believe what they want - they just can't treat anyone else like shit as a result.

Homosexuals are a danger to themselves and society

Ignorant, offensive horseshit. People's sexuality, if it is fully consensual, is no harm whatsoever to you, me, society or anything else. Unprotected intercourse with non-monogamous partners can clearly prove counter-productive in the fight against AIDS, but that applies to both hetero and homosexual intercourse.

Because you don't care about American freedoms

Rubbish. We just happen to know that freedoms are not absolute - they are limited by the freedoms of others. It's a nuanced and subtle analysis, which doesn't lend itself to the same tub-thumping soundbites as "you don't care about American freedoms", but then again, folks on this board tend not to be taken in by trite crap like that.

twisting it all to make ME the villain of course.

Never was there any less need to twist anything.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(7)
Message 257 of 1309 (726951)
05-14-2014 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Homosexuality is sin according to the Bible.

The day that I see you, and every other fundamentalist Christian who rails so hard against homosexuality, argue just as vociferously for the introduction of the death penalty (by stoning) for someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, is the same day I will believe that your views are genuinely founded in true faith that homosexuality is contrary to God's will, rather than your own hatred.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 387 of 1309 (727568)
05-19-2014 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
05-19-2014 5:16 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
You're characterising a requirement not to discriminate as punishment. In other words, you want to be able to discriminate against people so badly, that a law saying that you can't is seen as a punishment to you.

Now, I suspect that you're using a bit of hyperbole with the talk of Christians being punished, so I want to explore a little where it is that you draw your lines.

A few messages back, I referenced the old chestnut about God telling Moses to stone a guy to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Am I correct in presuming that you do not see it as punishment of Christians, that you are not legally able to kill folks for working on a Sunday ? Is that one which you would agree would be over the line to allow ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 5:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 5:44 AM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 389 of 1309 (727570)
05-19-2014 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
05-19-2014 5:44 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
There's plenty to take issue with there, but again, I want to know if you draw lines elsewhere, so that I can work out if your views on homosexuality are a special case.

So just to zero in on this, is it equally persecution, that Christians aren't allowed to kill folks, for working on a Sunday ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 5:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 5:55 AM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 391 of 1309 (727572)
05-19-2014 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Faith
05-19-2014 5:55 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
Well, you're on this site, engaging with all of us evil types, so have at it - answer the question Faith. Do you draw any lines, when it comes to your desire to require people to adhere to biblical requirements ?

It's a really relevant question - asked really politely - indulge us.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 5:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 6:16 AM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 393 of 1309 (727574)
05-19-2014 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
05-19-2014 6:16 AM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
I'm not asking whether God is deriding me. I'm asking you, Faith, what your views are - where it is you draw your lines (if any).

Do your convictions lack such courage, that they hide from scrutiny ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 6:16 AM Faith has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(6)
Message 464 of 1309 (727846)
05-21-2014 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Faith
05-21-2014 5:22 AM


Re: evidence
Christians leave gays alone.

But you don't want to leave them alone. You want the right to discriminate against them. You want Christians to have the right to refuse gay people services, which they offer to straight people.

You may think that this form of discrimination is perfectly acceptable. Most folks disagree with you.

If gay marriage offends you, then you are perfectly at liberty not to marry another woman. You are perfectly at liberty to have those views. You are perfectly at liberty to practice a religion which does not permit gay marriage. It's just that society has said that it's wrong to act on those beliefs in a way which discriminates against someone who is (harmlessly) different from you.

We're not attacking your beliefs - we're telling people not to act in a shitty way towards their fellow human beings.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 5:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 1:12 PM vimesey has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 506 of 1309 (727955)
05-22-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by Faith
05-21-2014 7:03 PM


Re: evidence
the ONLY thing at issue here is being asked to do something that violates God's law

Well, first point, let's not overstate the case - no one is being required to conduct a wedding ceremony with which they don't agree, or marry someone of the same sex. They're being required not to refuse to provide services in connection with a gay wedding, where they provide those services to other people.

I would not argue that forcing someone to conduct a gay wedding or to marry someone of the same sex is not a violation of God's law. Telling someone not to withhold services in connection with a gay wedding ? Much less so. The question is more nuanced than you suggest by saying it violates God's law.

But the second point is at the heart of the issue. Your biblical, faith-based objection, whilst patently relevant, is clearly not the ONLY thing at issue (your capitals). At issue also is discrimination against a group of people. And when issues conflict, we have to decide which one should take precedence. You don't get to trump everyone else's rights by simply saying "my particular faith is more important than anything else". (If you could, then all sorts of rubbish would be allowed - certain Christians could discriminate against black people; certain Muslims could cut off a thief's hand, etc etc and escape any punishment).

So we have to balance. We've chosen to balance by saying "ok, we won't force a church or mosque to conduct a gay wedding, but we will prohibit people who provide services to the public from discriminating by refusing to provide them to gay people. It's a balancing act, very well described in the judge's decision referenced above.

Now you can debate where the balance lies (though 100% in your favour is wrong for the reasons I've described above), but persecution it patently is not.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 7:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 6:16 AM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 537 of 1309 (728059)
05-23-2014 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Faith
05-22-2014 6:16 AM


Re: evidence
Hi Faith - I understand that you see conscientious disobedience and punishment as your bottom line. But I am interested in how you analyze conflicting rights.

Do you agree that society often has to balance conflicting rights ? And do you also agree that your right to your religious beliefs does not always trump other people's rights ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 6:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 05-23-2014 11:14 AM vimesey has not yet responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 858 of 1309 (741653)
11-13-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Faith
11-13-2014 3:05 PM


But we aren't even objecting to people living as they please.

I suppose that this is the question then: if, (and I don't support this, but if), the law were to be to permit homosexual marriage, but to exempt Christians from baking wedding cakes etc, would you still support that law ?

If not, then you are objecting to people living as they please.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 3:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 5:03 PM vimesey has responded

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1264
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 876 of 1309 (741706)
11-14-2014 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Faith
11-13-2014 5:03 PM


They are determined to force us to choose between our conscience and their misguided idea of their rights, and punish us for standing on our conscience.

How is it a matter for your conscience, though, if in the scenario I proposed, the law exempts Christians from having to bake the wedding cake etc ? How does their getting married impact your conscience ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 5:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by Faith, posted 11-14-2014 12:03 PM vimesey has not yet responded

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