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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 6 of 1309 (722731)
03-24-2014 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lokiare
03-24-2014 2:41 PM


Putting all academic, scientific and philosophical arguments aside for the moment, let me set you a challenge.

For me to win this challenge I'm relying on the probability of you being a heterosexual - and that you are male.

Go to any gay porn site. Do it late at night, possibly after you've had a beer or two and see if you can get an erection "by choice".

I've tried this and it doesn't work for me, but I'm a sample of one, so maybe it's not representative. (But I'm betting it is).

Report back and give us the result. (This is one experiment that you CAN try at home.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by lokiare, posted 03-24-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:36 PM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 49 of 1309 (722874)
03-25-2014 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
03-25-2014 2:44 PM


Re: A Cup Of Tea?
AZ writes:

Sorry, fellas. I think you all took a wrong turn somewhere.

I agree. Faith's meaning was fairly obvious but she left herself with just enough blood in the water to attract the sharks. I think we'd make more progress by offering a sticking plaster now and then.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2014 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 61 of 1309 (722903)
03-25-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Theodoric
03-25-2014 5:05 PM


theo writes:

Yes it is but that argument is a strawman in the general context. Homosexuals can reproduce. That they cannot from the act is a strawman.

Yes, but it was fairly clear that Faith was trying to argue that because homosexuals can't reproduce (by having sex with other homosexuals) there's evolutionary pressure for the trait to be eliminated - which is a reasonable point to make.

Now there's lots of explanations why that's wrong, but they can be argued without all the bigot accusations. (I am, of course, aware of Faith's previous offences in this regard.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 03-25-2014 5:05 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 62 of 1309 (722904)
03-25-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
03-25-2014 4:35 PM


Faith writes:

IDIOT!

You're not helping.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 03-25-2014 4:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(5)
Message 66 of 1309 (722910)
03-25-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:36 PM


locklare writes:

Nice try

Chicken.

One this would not work unless you had a large enough sample size to weed out randomness. Second it wouldn't prove anything one way or the other.

This is a personal challenge, we've put aside randomised samples and control groups. This is about YOU personally. A sample of 1. I'm asking you to put your hand in the wound, Thomas.

Go look at a gay porn site and see if you can get an erection. Let us know how you get on.

The one thing that most people don't understand is that it is reversible and treatable. There are many testimonies of willing people that have undergone therapy to reverse their (I want to use another neutral word, but can't find one) addition to the same gender and who live normal lives afterwords.

And this is total, absolute and revolting drivel, but we can discuss it later.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:36 PM lokiare has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 7:54 PM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 178 of 1309 (723045)
03-26-2014 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by lokiare
03-25-2014 7:54 PM


lokiare writes:

So I get plenty of exposure and I have zero attraction to it.

Ok, that's good enough - it seems that you couldn't choose to be gay. Now explain to me why you think other people *can* choose it.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 7:54 PM lokiare has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 224 of 1309 (723200)
03-27-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
03-27-2014 8:58 AM


No Faith, we hate the sin not the sinner.

(What's good for the goose.......)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 8:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 228 of 1309 (723289)
03-28-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


lokiare writes:

I'm out of time today, but I will come back and respond to posts in a day or two.

When you do, please explain how any of this involves choice.

Also, have you now accepted that you personally couldn't actually choose to be gay?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 235 of 1309 (723317)
03-29-2014 4:05 AM


A law to allow same sex marriage in England and Wales came into effect last night at midnight. The Church of England, which has 26 seats in our parliament, has accepted the new law but will not allow weddings in their churches or recognise the marriages. (Whatever that means).

The church is going to get into a right pickle about it - just like they have with women bishops - as they won't allow gay vicars to marry. Some of them have already said that they will marry, despite that they might lose their jobs and homes - it should be quite comical watching the theological and legal cartwheeling that will result.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Larni, posted 03-29-2014 5:50 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(8)
Message 278 of 1309 (727143)
05-15-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
05-15-2014 3:53 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Faith writes:

I'm talking only about people who think they are Christians.

Once upon a time being a Christian meant being a nice person. Someone who followed gentle Jesus, meek and mild - someone who washed the feet of sinners, defended prostitutes and walked amongst lepers. He's exactly the kind of bloke that would have been on the side of the persecuted homosexual. When did those values change Faith? Why have made Jesus into someone that isn't nice?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 3:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 05-15-2014 11:59 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 603 of 1309 (740543)
11-05-2014 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2014 1:41 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr A writes:

I am in favor of laws against discrimination, whether on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, race, etc. But I am in favor of religious freedom.

Despite the strange US aversion to the term, all modern democracies are essentially liberal and attempt to balance conflicting freedoms through their laws. But laws are blunt instruments which have a requirement to create blacks and whites where grey is more usually the real colour. They're macro tools that are forced to work at the micro level and that's a tough ask.

Generally laws push gross movements in general directions and only get into real trouble at the margins when differences between individuals force black and white decisions.

My take on this is that we really need to educate people about how important the law is and explain it's real purpose - which is to keep its citizens safe and allow us to go through our lives knowing that the state will only interfere with us in predictable and fair ways. In return, we're asked to accept the rule of law without exceptionalism. This means that individuals have a responsibility to society as a whole to behave reasonably themselves and not create unnecessary conflict.

In a fair and free society, people have choice - the gay couple needing a wedding cake who deliberately take their order to a company they know have religious reasons for refusing, is behaving as unreasonably as the business refusing to do the work. It's a deliberate act of provocation to make a political point. In effect they are abusing an important privilege.

The balance is really difficult and from time to time someone will quite rightly make a political protest that actually matters and is not simply unnecessary provocation - like sitting in a forbidden place on a bus. Sadly, we probably won't know the difference until long after the fact. But it's all part of the ugly civilising process and we really shouldn't think that we can make simple rules of how to traverse human difference.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 1:41 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 5:30 PM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 606 of 1309 (740548)
11-05-2014 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2014 5:30 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr. A. writes:

.. made up in your head.

Correct - as an example.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 5:30 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 608 of 1309 (740550)
11-05-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Faith
11-05-2014 5:37 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
faith writes:

What do you think of the lesbian mayor of Houston's issuing subpoenas to five Houston pastors to turn over their sermons and any other communications related to her new ordinance that allows either sex to use the public restroom of his or her choice?

Reference please


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 5:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:02 PM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 613 of 1309 (740555)
11-05-2014 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by Faith
11-05-2014 6:02 PM


Re: Houston mayor
Faith writes:

Hard to believe I need to produce references but that just shows that Christian news doesn't make it into the mainstream media.

Yeh, well, huge in your Christian circle doesn't mean an awful lot, apparently. (And I really don't find that hard to believe.) Anyway, your link doesn't work - can you provide a link to a story from an objective source? ie not a Christian newspaper. I'd like to hear the facts.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:18 PM Tangle has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 615 of 1309 (740558)
11-05-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Faith
11-05-2014 6:18 PM


Re: Houston mayor
Well that looks like a good news story to me. Liberal democracy in action - two violently opposing viewpoints and silly actions from both sides defused without bloodshed and civil war.

That's how it works, when it works well - hopefully both sides will have learnt from it.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

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