I didn't say I'm NOT defining what a Christian is, but it's YOUR definition that turns us into bigots and gets our businesses closed.
You just keep placing the ball on the tee for me don't you Faith?
My definition doesn't even exist, I accept other peoples claim to be Christians. It is their behavior not their beliefs that make them bigots. They are free to believe homosexuality is an aberration and free to not marry or have sex with folk that are the same sex. The question you have never bothered to try to answer is how baking a wedding cake in any way supports or validates a marriage?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
... it's YOUR definition that turns us into bigots and gets our businesses closed.
Very good, Faith. You are absolutely correct.
We, I, this Secular American Society, define some of the tenets of your christianity as bigoted because they are abhorrent to humanity and bigoted proprietors should go out of business. Not just "go" out of business but be forced out of business by law.
I don't often say this, but well played, evil bigot, well played. This is what I was talking about. She shouldn't have the right to refuse him service based on his views, but she should have the right to not actually endorse his views by providing him with a service. Let's ban discrimination by all means, but there ought to be a fence around people's first amendment rights --- the government can't force people to say things they violently disagree with.
When Christian educator Bill Jack ordered a cake last year from Azucar, a Denver bakery, he had a special decoration request for owner Marjorie Silva. He wanted the cake to say "God Hates Gays" with a drawing to match. Silva refused, and now she's facing a half-baked complaint from Jack alleging he was the victim of religious discrimination.
Silva made a good-faith effort to work with Jack when he presented himself as a customer. She had no problem with making a cake in the shape of a Bible, even offering to make him a blank one and provide the DIY decorating tools he would need to add the words and images that he was asking for. It's not as though she was trying to offer a different, less extensive menu to Christian customers. Phillips, on the other hand, was unwilling to even talk about design options with Craig and Mullins. Jack said he would make them a birthday cake or some brownies, but the wedding cake they came in for? No dice.
Further, Silva declined to fulfill a cake "order" because the order went beyond her standards of offensiveness. Her issue was with the design, not who was trying to order it or what they planned to do with it. And nondiscrimination laws have nothing to say about business owners' standards of taste, as long as they apply across the board to all customers.
Phillips, on the other hand, freely admits that it was Masterpiece Cakeshop's long-standing policy to sell wedding cakes for opposite-sex couples and refuse to sell them for same-sex couples. Craig and Mullins did not even get to explain to Phillips what their dream wedding cake might have looked like before he rejected their business. Thus, Phillips has been found in violation of Colorado law and ordered to end his previous practice of sexual orientation discrimination, but it's highly unlikely the complaint against Silva will go anywhere since he wasn't turned away because of who he is.
Freedom from discrimination means
(a) you cannot discriminate against people for race, religious, disability, sexual orientation or ethnic reasons ... (ie - the gay couple were discriminated against by the cake baker),
(b) you cannot force someone else to participate in your desire to discriminate against people for race, religious, disability, sexual orientation or ethnic reasons ... (ie - the gay hater was not discriminated against, he was given full opportunity to get a cake, but his discriminatory hate message was not permitted).
Do Muslims make wedding cakes? Are there Muslim florists that might be called on to supply a gay wedding? I don't know but Muslims object to gay weddings too, yet I have a sneaking suspicion nobody's going to challenge them. Or if they did refuse to serve a gay wedding we'd never hear about it and nothing legal would ever come of it. Nobody would call THEM "bigots." Yet nobody is going to recognize what hypocrisy this is either.
Enjoy your brave new world, it isn't going to last long.
Unfortunately, M'lady, you are probably right about that, too. Though not for the reasons you think.
Of course I'm curious what reasons you have in mind, but in any case, would you like to bet $100 on that? I'd have to push the date up to 2020 by which I expect the predicted denouement for the reasons I predict, since if I lose the bet to Dr. A in 2019 and to you too, I couldn't afford to pay both of you, but I might be able to manage a hundred a year. Do understand, however, that even if I lose I expect what I'm betting on to happen eventually, perhaps just a few years later than expected. Possibly earlier.
Or if they did refuse to serve a gay wedding we'd never hear about it and nothing legal would ever come of it.
Now right there is a major indicator of attitude and business smarts.
Christians believe they own this nation and can do pretty much anything they want, within reason. So some good Christian gal hangs out her shingle and advertises she does wedding cakes. Then she gets herself into trouble because she really didn’t mean she does wedding cakes for everybody, just everybody except them over there and these ones over here.
The Muslims recognize they do not run this place and they also know business practices soooo much better than do the Christians. So some good Muslim gal hangs out her shingle and advertises that she does Muslim wedding cakes in a number of classic Islamic motifs with various sura of the Quran iced in. She states right in her ads, which are, of course, in Arabic, that she specializes in Islamic wedding cake design. Now should some Christian or some gay come along and inquire about a wedding cake she can say “Sure. And which sura do you want written?” If they say no, they want a Christian design or a secular motif then our Muslim baker can rightfully and legally refuse since these are not within her advertised specialty. She can refuse to perform a service that is not a part of her business and her business specializes exclusively in Muslim wedding cakes. And she does pita on Wednesdays.
Edited by AZPaul3, : forgot opening reference. sorry.
Not that I'm surprised, but you'd think someone here might notice that driving Christians out of business for acting on their religious beliefs is a violation of their First Amendment rights, by the very government the amendment was intended to restrain from such abuse. Same with fining them or taking any legal action against them because of their religious belief. But apparently not any more because America isn't America any more. The First Amendment no longer applies to the religion it first protected, instead it increasingly protects only the enemies of Christianity. What's that called? Living Constitution? Something like that? Constitution that can change from good to evil according to who is calling the shots.
Funny how the end times prophecies of the total destruction of all good things used to be merely theoretical in my mind.
Not that I'm surprised, but you'd think someone here might notice that driving Christians out of business for acting on their religious beliefs is a violation of their First Amendment rights, by the very government the amendment was intended to restrain from such abuse. Same with fining them or taking any legal action against them because of their religious belief.
Yet you have so far refused to present any evidence that any of their First Amendment Rights were infringed.
How does a cake validate or enable a marriage?
It really is that simple Faith.
Have they been told they cannot hold their personal beliefs no matter how sill and bigoted those beliefs might be?
Edited by jar, : see AbE
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Do understand, however, that even if I lose I expect what I'm betting on to happen eventually, perhaps just a few years later than expected. Possibly earlier.
Harold Camping lives!
Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
...would you like to bet $100 on that? I'd have to push the date up to 2020...
$100? That won't be worth much in 2020. And with my previous life styles taking their toll I probably won't be around to collect.
Let's just make a bet for pride.
My end of the world scenario … end of the world is over reaching, end of the humans scenario is better … is us.
I can see the future. Actually quite a few of us can if you look in the right ways. Anyway, my end of the humans scenario will take about 500 years to finally fulfill but most of the damage, most of the human destruction, will take place in the next 200 years give or take. Everything your bible calls for – plague, pestilence, disease, war, starvation, unspeakable barbarity will all be present. The demise of easy energy, the desertification of some great lands, the submerging of others, massive crop failures the world over, food riots, revolt, tyranny and yet more war.
What few remain will be incapable of dealing with the world the way we will leave it. They will not be able to continue to compensate for the continued heating, the destruction of lands, the slaughter of ecosystems. Slowly, each new generation of scattered clans will get smaller and smaller.
You’ll be happy to know that guns remain as coveted assets right up to the last human, a young girl, succumbs to the heated poisoned world, the last of her kind.
Humans will be gone. Extinct.
The good news, of course, is that as the humans come to an end so does your god.
Disclaimer: My crystal ball is actually made of an acrylic polymer.
Ringo's Message 1238 and AZPaul's Message 1247 are advocating driving Christians out of business on the basis of their religious beliefs. You'd think they or someone would notice that this is advocating the violation of their First Amendment rights. As I said I'm not surprised since it's politically correct to champion gay rights but hate Christians, but you'd think maybe someone here might see it. Guess not.
But since Christian business owners have in fact been subjected to this sort of abuse of their First Amendment protection I suppose we have to assume that that protection no longer exists in America. The Oregon cake business had to close their doors and work from home, and no longer do wedding cakes. The husband had to get a job driving a truck.
Gone gone gone is the First Amendment as we used to know it. But that's OK, isn't it? PC is now our Constitution and soon we'll be part of the One World Order anyway, the New Expanded Roman Empire, just one big happy family no longer annoyed by those pesky Christians.