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Author Topic:   Creation Museum a House of Cards Sitting on Old Old Earth Rocks
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 7 of 61 (723262)
03-28-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
03-28-2014 7:55 AM


The same indomitable human will that leads to our greatest achievements also causes creationists to cling tenaciously to their beliefs.

In my view your explanation is extremely charitable. I doubt that one Creationist in fifty has any real appreciation of the science that they deny. Yeah, Senator Paul Broun from Georgia, the medical doctor who insists that evolution is 'lies from the pits of Hell', maintains that position in the face of the evidence. Michael Behe knows better, but maintains his silly positions. But that kind of 'indomitable will' isn't what I'm seeing here. Unless you think a bag of hammers has super enhanced will power.

I understand that it is rude and elitist to say it, but for the most part, the Creationists here seem to be composed of folks whose last science course was a painful, junior high school memory with the occasional poster who has taken some kind of physics/biology for poets course under duress. Maybe there used to be lots of exceptions to that who posted here, but apparently those guys are long gone.

I suppose I ought to say something positive. That Leonardo da Vinci was an absolute genius.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 03-28-2014 7:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 03-28-2014 12:15 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 13 by Taq, posted 03-28-2014 3:28 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 03-28-2014 3:45 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 15 of 61 (723302)
03-28-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
03-28-2014 3:45 PM


we are in all likelihood treading our own irrational path on some topic or another

That's fine. I admit to holding some non-rational beliefs.

Being compassionate and understanding is one thing. Excusing pigheadedness is fine. But elevating ignorance and illogic to the level of being virtues is something else.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 03-28-2014 3:45 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 03-29-2014 7:37 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 61 (735542)
08-17-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by RAZD
08-16-2014 8:33 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Science is the art of understanding life, the universe, and everything ...

Engineering is the art of making practical use of scientific knowledge.

Yes you need a basic foundation in what science says, but you still are not a practicing scientist.

The above reasoning is wrong. A scientist is someone who practices the scientific method in a field in which he has the requisite expertise to address a particular inquiry. A PhD in mechanical engineering would be expected to have sufficient academic background necessary to conduct scientific inquiries within his particular field of expertise some of which might easily be classified as basic science. Whether or not Dr. Brown is or is not a scientist would depend on whether he carries out such inquiries or not.

What we can say is that Walter Brown's credentials alone don't make him a practicing scientist. And we can easily criticize his work on Creation Science without even looking at his credentials.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 08-16-2014 8:33 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:02 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 50 by jar, posted 08-17-2014 5:09 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2014 2:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 61 (735546)
08-17-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:02 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Dunno what happens in the USA, but here in Blighty, engineers receive BScs (Bachelor of Science degrees) and would be astonished to hear that they are not considered to be scientists.

I would find it surprising and a bit pompous to hear someone with a BS degree in any subject calling themselves a scientist simply by way of having received such a degree. That is certainly not what is done in the US. Quite frankly, even a BS degree in biology, chemistry, or physics does not make you a scientist.

My understanding is that just as in the US, British schools offer BSc degrees in subjects like economics and mathematics.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:02 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 61 (735549)
08-17-2014 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:46 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Well people here at EVC tend to take the tautological view that a scientist is someone who practices science and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it. That's just a nonsense, good ideas and argument can come from anywhere - they just need to be backed by reason and evidence.

That is of course true. But generally speaking, people new graduates with a BS degree even in scientific disciplines do not work as scientists. They are mostly working under scientists.

It's actually more usual for an engineer to get a B.Eng than a Bsc.

There really is no distinction between a B.Eng and a BS in Engineering. Schools have some leeway to call their degrees what they will, and there seems to be a lot more variation in what UK schools and others do compared to what US schools do. BS degrees are generally more rigorous than BA degrees, at least at schools that offer both.

and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it

I'm not sure what point you are making here. I am certainly not advocating dismissing Dr. Brown for not being a scientist simply because he has an engineering degree. I have actually made the argument that we should not do that.

I would also say that my other engineering friend who is an Aeronautical Engineering and designs flight simulators for British Aerospace also probably thinks of himself as a scientist. And I bloody sure I do too.

Your description does not advance or provide an argument that your friend is a scientist. But what of it? Not being a scientist is no insult to an engineer. It is only an insult to people who are attempting to do science and have failed to do so.

I graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering and Physics. I have never considered myself a scientist because I generally don't conduct scientific investigations. But that is not the same thing as saying that I don't approach scientific manners in a scientific method or that my thought processes are somehow inferior to those of scientists


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 61 (735558)
08-17-2014 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
08-17-2014 5:46 PM


Re: Engineers are not scientists
Economists and mathematicians can and do get B.Scs. I'd consider them scientists too - and why not? They all follow rational, objective models in trying to understand our world.

The reason why not is because following 'rational objective models in trying to understand our world' is not the definition of scientist. Your definition might exclude astrology, but it would not exclude numerology in general or ID. Not all logical pursuits are sciences.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 5:46 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2014 2:16 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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