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Member (Idle past 1662 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Creation Museum a House of Cards Sitting on Old Old Earth Rocks | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1662 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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House of Cards
quote: He doesn't mince words. There are similar layers of growth in other areas, such as Brachiopods on Mt Everest -- a clam-like order that typically grows on stalks attached to the ground -- where the shells show growth rings, the stalks show they grew undisturbed in location for decades, where they were gradually buried by slowly accumulating sediment as other younger brachiopods grew on top of those sediments forming overlapping layers of decades of growth. The world is old, and to believe in a global flood is delusional. Edited by Admin, : Reduce indentation a bit. Edited by RAZD, : subtitle Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Admin Director Posts: 13108 From: EvC Forum Joined: |
Thread copied here from the Creation Museum a House of Cards Sitting on Old Old Earth Rocks thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Taq Member Posts: 10302 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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I can't help but think of Huxley's essay, "On a Piece of Chalk" from 1868. In it, he uses a rock that everyone is familiar with to drive home some very important points. He discusses just how massive these chalk layers are, and then points out how they were built from the tiniest of creatures. Even in 1868 it was obvious to everyone that these deposits required massive amounts of time, and this was well before radiometric dating made it on to the scene.
Ken Ham is known for simplifying geology to the point of stupidity. He will say that floods produce mud, and what do we see in the geology record? MUD!!!! As Huxley, Nye, and now RAZD point out so very well, it isn't mud. It is life. That is what creationists can not explain, how you can get a thousand feet of the worlds tiniest sea creatures stacked on top of each other instead of the mud we would expect from a flood. "No less certain it is that the time during which the countries we now call south-east England, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Egypt, Arabia, Syria, were more or less completely covered by a deep sea, was of considerable duration. We have already seen that the chalk is, in places, more than a thousand feet thick. I think you will agree with me, that it must have taken some time for the skeletons of animalcules of a hundredth of an inch in diameter to heap up such a mass as that. I have said that throughout the thickness of the chalk the remains of other animals are scattered. These remains are often in the most exquisite state of preservation. The valves of the shell-fishes are commonly adherent; the long spines of some of the sea-urchins, which would be detached by the smallest jar, often remain in their places. In a word, it is certain that these animals have lived and died [21] when the place which they now occupy was the surface of as much of the chalk as had then been deposited; and that each has been covered up by the layer of Globigerina mud, upon which the creatures imbedded a little higher up have, in like manner, lived and died."--Thomas Huxley, "On a Piece of Chalk" Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : added Huxley quote
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1662 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I can't help but think of Huxley's essay, "On a Piece of Chalk" from 1868. ... Indeed, and Donald Prothero mentions similar in the House of Cards article:
quote: Even Leonardo DaVinci figured it out:
Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) quote: The world is old, very old, and belief in a world wide flood is delusional. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10302 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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The world is old, very old, and belief in a world wide flood is delusional.
Getting back to Ham v. Nye, I think it would have been realy cool if Nye had taken a piece of chalk and put it under a microscope for all to see. Then show them pictures of the cliffs at Dover. If anyone remains unconvinced at that point, take away their membership cards in the human race. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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The mystery isn't why we can't find sufficiently persuasive facts, because we have. The mystery is why people hold beliefs that facts can't touch. I think our failure in convincing creationists isn't one of facts but of human spirit. The same indomitable human will that leads to our greatest achievements also causes creationists to cling tenaciously to their beliefs.
--Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The same indomitable human will that leads to our greatest achievements also causes creationists to cling tenaciously to their beliefs. In my view your explanation is extremely charitable. I doubt that one Creationist in fifty has any real appreciation of the science that they deny. Yeah, Senator Paul Broun from Georgia, the medical doctor who insists that evolution is 'lies from the pits of Hell', maintains that position in the face of the evidence. Michael Behe knows better, but maintains his silly positions. But that kind of 'indomitable will' isn't what I'm seeing here. Unless you think a bag of hammers has super enhanced will power. I understand that it is rude and elitist to say it, but for the most part, the Creationists here seem to be composed of folks whose last science course was a painful, junior high school memory with the occasional poster who has taken some kind of physics/biology for poets course under duress. Maybe there used to be lots of exceptions to that who posted here, but apparently those guys are long gone. I suppose I ought to say something positive. That Leonardo da Vinci was an absolute genius. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 669 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Won't power is often stronger than will power. Unless you think a bag of hammers has super enhanced will power. Same force, different direction. That's mathematics, boy. Vector mathematics, that is. You can't argue with mathematics, boy.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1662 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The mystery isn't why we can't find sufficiently persuasive facts, because we have. ... Indeed. I'll bet that you could dig down into rock in any location in the world and you would find evidence of an old age and a continuity of life for billions of years. After all the original hobby geologists were looking for evidence of the flood and they found that the earth was old and that there was no flood. And that is just looking at surface evidence, before radiometric dating methods confirmed the old ages.
... The mystery is why people hold beliefs that facts can't touch. I... Well I look at what Dawkins said about evolution deniers -- that they were either stupid, ignorant, insane or malicious ... or tortured. I put deluded in there between ignorant and insane. Mislead is another term, but it is a little kinder than deluded, and doesn't carry the emotional undertones that deluded has, and which are very much in evidence: there is an emotional commitment to these false ideas and they have been instilled in people by people that are (perhaps unwittingly) malicious in spreading the false ideas without vetting them against reality. It's like an infection of delusion from person to person, where emotion is used rather than rational evaluation. Ignorant, delusional, mislead people can be cured with knowledge, but they have to want to change. This is where it becomes a psychological issue, treatment of clinical delusion is only possible when the people want to change. So what do they get by holding on to delusions? Is it worth it?
... The same indomitable human will that leads to our greatest achievements also causes creationists to cling tenaciously to their beliefs. Yes, people are basically stubborn, especially where it comes to cherished beliefs, and this is why cognitive dissonance arises. The world is old, very very very old, and denial serves no real purpose, provides not benefit, not any that I can see. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1662 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Won't power is often stronger than will power. It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. ― (attributed to) Mark Twain (but I've never seen the source listed) by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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"Familiar quotes are often mistakenly attributed to Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain." -Aristotle Or was it Thomas Jefferson? --Percy
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Won't power is often stronger than will power. It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. ― (attributed to) Mark Twain (but I've never seen the source listed) I like a woman with a strong will. Or at least a weak won't. ― (attributed to) Groucho Marx but I couldn't find it.
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Taq Member Posts: 10302 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
I understand that it is rude and elitist to say it, but for the most part, the Creationists here seem to be composed of folks whose last science course was a painful, junior high school memory with the occasional poster who has taken some kind of physics/biology for poets course under duress. Maybe there used to be lots of exceptions to that who posted here, but apparently those guys are long gone. That's about what I sense as well. They have been told that experts have looked at the science, and that YEC is supported by it. That's about all they need to know. I think deep down they know better than to go digging into the supposed YEC science. Think of it as plausible deniability.
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Percy Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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I guess I'm asking us to consider who among us has no irrational stance on anything. There but for the grace of God go us, except that God granted us no such grace and we are in all likelihood treading our own irrational path on some topic or another. We err if we deem creationists to be poor misbegotten souls of an inferior caste. They are us and we are them.
--Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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we are in all likelihood treading our own irrational path on some topic or another That's fine. I admit to holding some non-rational beliefs. Being compassionate and understanding is one thing. Excusing pigheadedness is fine. But elevating ignorance and illogic to the level of being virtues is something else. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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