Creation Museum a House of Cards Sitting on Old Old Earth Rocks

Science is the art of understanding life, the universe, and everything ...Engineering is the art of making practical use of scientific knowledge.Yes you need a basic foundation in what science says, but you still are not a practicing scientist.Engineers don't need an understanding of how things work, they just need a practical application, and can derive that via approximations and parametric equations ... and then throw on a factor of safety to account for unknowns.If it works you use it, if it doesn't work you try again. Newton's gravity is good enough to get to mars, so you don't need to figure dark stuffs and relativity.When a bridge falls down then you add another factor of safety to the next design.see Working Hypothesis -- what is the value? -- engineers don't need a falsifiable hypothesis, just a working one.Enjoy

No, you have it wrong. There is no correlation between them being against evolution and being real scientists.If they were doing real science that disproved evolution, you might have a point. But no matter how many letters they have after their names, they are not getting their anti-evolution ideas from science.

The above reasoning is wrong. A scientist is someone who practices the scientific method in a field in which he has the requisite expertise to address a particular inquiry. A PhD in mechanical engineering would be expected to have sufficient academic background necessary to conduct scientific inquiries within his particular field of expertise some of which might easily be classified as basic science. Whether or not Dr. Brown is or is not a scientist would depend on whether he carries out such inquiries or not.What we can say is that Walter Brown's credentials alone don't make him a practicing scientist. And we can easily criticize his work on Creation Science without even looking at his credentials.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Dunno what happens in the USA, but here in Blighty, engineers receive BScs (Bachelor of Science degrees) and would be astonished to hear that they are not considered to be scientists.In fact they actually have to a eat botanists in their second year and form a box girder bridge out of their rib cages.

No Creationist can ever be a scientist or actually use the scientific method since they begin with a conclusion and simply attempt to provide support for that conclusion.Creation Scientists are liars by definition.

I would find it surprising and a bit pompous to hear someone with a BS degree in any subject calling themselves a scientist simply by way of having received such a degree. That is certainly not what is done in the US. Quite frankly, even a BS degree in biology, chemistry, or physics does not make you a scientist.My understanding is that just as in the US, British schools offer BSc degrees in subjects like economics and mathematics.

Well people here at EVC tend to take the tautological view that a scientist is someone who practices science and then use it as a way of dismissing opinions from educated people who have studied science but don't practice it. That's just a nonsense, good ideas and argument can come from anywhere - they just need to be backed by reason and evidence.It's actually more usual for an engineer to get a B.Eng than a Bsc. I have a mate who's a Civil Engineer and designs and build bridges, power stations and airports for a living, he wouldn't know which way up to hold a test tube but he's sure as hell a scientist.I would also say that my other engineering friend who is an Aeronautical Engineering and designs flight simulators for British Aerospace also probably thinks of himself as a scientist. And I bloody sure I do too.Economists and mathematicians can and do get B.Scs. I'd consider them scientists too - and why not? They all follow rational, objective models in trying to understand our world.

That is of course true. But generally speaking, people new graduates with a BS degree even in scientific disciplines do not work as scientists. They are mostly working under scientists. There really is no distinction between a B.Eng and a BS in Engineering. Schools have some leeway to call their degrees what they will, and there seems to be a lot more variation in what UK schools and others do compared to what US schools do. BS degrees are generally more rigorous than BA degrees, at least at schools that offer both. I'm not sure what point you are making here. I am certainly not advocating dismissing Dr. Brown for not being a scientist simply because he has an engineering degree. I have actually made the argument that we should not do that. Your description does not advance or provide an argument that your friend is a scientist. But what of it? Not being a scientist is no insult to an engineer. It is only an insult to people who are attempting to do science and have failed to do so.I graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering and Physics. I have never considered myself a scientist because I generally don't conduct scientific investigations. But that is not the same thing as saying that I don't approach scientific manners in a scientific method or that my thought processes are somehow inferior to those of scientists

Though I like to think that mathematicians are wrong less often.

The reason why not is because following 'rational objective models in trying to understand our world' is not the definition of scientist. Your definition might exclude astrology, but it would not exclude numerology in general or ID. Not all logical pursuits are sciences.

Ah, yes, but that wouldn't be thinking scientifically would it? Though I'm sure you're right. Perhaps economics is just harder......Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

It would excluded both, because in neither do their conclusions match their evidence. But I'm not going to go any further with this - torturing the meaning of words is as much use as arguing about the smells of an angel's fart.

See Message 18 on Working Hypothesis -- what is the value?Then this thread can return to the topic of Creation Museums and the humorously ill-equipped under-educated and delusional people running them ...Enjoy

Curiously, I have three degrees ... a bachelor degree, a masters degree ... and an associate of science degree in design, so does that make me a design scientist? ... yet I don't consider myself a scientist (in spite of doing many controlled experiments), rather I consider myself to be scientifically literate, educated in the practical application of knowledge derived by science.The scientific method involve falsification tests, and the experiments done by engineers don't really have falsification tests involved, so strictly speaking, while they may run experiments and adopt changes, it isn't a full application of the scientific method (see Working Hypothesis -- what is the value? Message 18 for more). Done that, tastes like chicken ...Edited by RAZD, : clrty

I would say that an engineer carries out an empirical test of an scientific theory every time he builds a bridge.But this is all just 'no true Scotsman' stuff.