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Author Topic:   Unjust Deserts - Gar Alperovitz & Lew Daly
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 9 of 53 (723418)
04-01-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by New Cat's Eye
03-31-2014 5:03 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Its going out and doing what you need to do in order to obtain what you want.


Dillinger did that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-31-2014 5:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 11 of 53 (723421)
04-01-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2014 12:05 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

But since it was obtained illegally, the FBI hunted him down.


Isn't that what the OP is advocating? Making it illegal to steal more than your share?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:16 PM ringo has responded
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-03-2014 12:04 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 13 of 53 (723424)
04-01-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2014 12:16 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

I didn't see any mention of making anything illegal.


Well, you quoted this from the OP:
quote:
What then, other than injustice, entitles him to sole enjoyment of this wealth in the stead of millions of others who worked just as hard not earning it?

Notice the word "injustice"? Doesn't changing injustice to justice suggest changing the law?

I'm just saying that Dillinger used technology for his own ends in the same way that entrepreneurs use technology for their own ends. The only difference is a legal technicality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:47 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 15 of 53 (723428)
04-01-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2014 12:47 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Its an injustice that some poor kid had to be born into a starving family in Africa while I get to sit here eating cheese and grapes.


That may be a philosophical injustice but the OP talks about entitlement, which is a more concrete legal injustice.

Catholic Scientist writes:

But sitting around calling it an injustice and saying the people who have obtained wealth don't deserve it doesn't really accomplish anything.


It does if it's the first step in doing something about it. The intention of the OP (and the book) seems to be to increase awareness that the rich are not morally entitled to their riches even if they are legally entitled.

Catholic Scientist writes:

Us sitting around discussing how unfair life is, is a waste of time.


Well, I'm trying to increase the awareness of the right-wing nuts on the forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 3:02 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 20 of 53 (723480)
04-02-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2014 3:02 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

Considering that our lawmakers are controlled by the rich, I'm afraid you're on a fruitless endeavor.


Tell it to Lenin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-01-2014 3:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 24 of 53 (723521)
04-03-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-03-2014 12:04 AM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

If all of the wealth in the world were divided equally, the system wouldnt work.


Why not?

Phat writes:

How do we go about determining what ones share is?


From each according to his ability to each according to his need. A society that can't provide for the needs of its members is a dysfunctional society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-03-2014 12:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 1:58 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 26 of 53 (723616)
04-04-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
04-04-2014 1:58 AM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

Human nature just doesnt work that way.


People often confuse their own faults with "human nature".

Phat writes:

Society has no Karl Marx ordained right to redistribute wealth nor could it be done without provoking wars and violence.


It's a Jesus-ordained duty:
quote:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 1:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 28 of 53 (723624)
04-04-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
04-04-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

We would never get governments to follow Jesus mandates,however.


Why not? They're our servants, aren't they? If we can eliminate segregation, why can't we eliminate poverty?

Phat writes:

It didnt work back then and it wont work now...


It didn't work back then because they couldn't vote Caesar out of office. If it doesn't work now, it's only because we don't do what we could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 30 of 53 (723627)
04-04-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
04-04-2014 12:31 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

Would I really want to vote in a politician who would redistribute my lower middle class wage to reflect global poverty?


Do you want to follow Jesus or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 32 of 53 (723631)
04-04-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
04-04-2014 12:43 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

...obedience is better than sacrifice...


I'll quote it again:
quote:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Obedience and sacrifice are the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 12:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 40 of 53 (723657)
04-05-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
04-04-2014 6:05 PM


Re: Share and Share Alike
Phat writes:

Its all well and good to quote Matthew and yes, I do believe that Jesus said it...but do you realistically expect someone--anyone--to sell everything they have and walk around helping people?


The question is: Does Jesus expect it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 04-04-2014 6:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 42 of 53 (723659)
04-05-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
04-05-2014 2:11 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

... the wild, rebellious, and eternally free and feisty spirit of the Americans.


That's a myth.

People don't fight for privilege. They buy it - and they pay others to protect it for them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 2:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:49 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 44 of 53 (723662)
04-05-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2014 11:49 AM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

... there would be an army bought and paid for by the wealthy...


Yes.

Phat writes:

... and there would be an uprising of the masses who---in America at least---own much less stuff than do the wealthy yet far more stuff than the average global citizen.


No. They'd clamour for more police protection but very few of them would actually do anything. Your average "feisty" American gun-owner might shoot at somebody taking his stuff - and kill his own children in the process - but you'll never see an "uprising of the masses".

Phat writes:

... in any future scenario involving a world government ...


Who said anything about a world government?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 11:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 5:54 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17911
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 51 of 53 (723707)
04-06-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
04-05-2014 5:54 PM


Re: The Hillbilly Militia
Phat writes:

If the christians ever collectively believed that one of their endtime scenarios was coming into play, they would fight.


The key word there is "collectively". Every now and then you'll see a cult like the Branch Davidians but fundamentalist wingnuts aren't near collective enough to mount anything resembling an
"uprising of the masses".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-05-2014 5:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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