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Author | Topic: Why is evolution so controversial? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Perhaps evolution is "controversial" because of a lack of knowledge. This applies to the general public, but more so to creationists.
In the first college class I taught that covered evolution I started with a simple hands-on experiment. I provided three bones--innominates--and asked everyone to separate them into two groups. A simple task, as two resembled each other closely, although one was smaller than the other, while the third was markedly different in shape. The class agreed that the two with the similar shape should be grouped, as size was less important, while the one with the different shape should be separate. It turns out the two innominates that the class chose to group together were from a modern human and an Australopithecus fossil a couple of million years old. The odd-ball was modern chimpanzee. After that, if there were any creationists in the class, I never heard a word out of them. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing--for creationists.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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It is however being questioned by elite scientists!
Top men? Hmmmm. ;-)Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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No, silly, it doesn't verify evolution because even on the Flood model we wouldn't expect to find a cow in the "Precambrian," otherwise and much more rationally known simply as one of the lowest strata in the geologic column. That was my point, do pay attention. When -ologists of various kinds get together to gather facts and work out theories explaining the past they do not consider whether their work agrees or disagrees with the "flood model" as that "model" is 1) a religious belief unsupported by facts, and 2) it was examined and disproved about 200 years ago. But creationists are better than the Required Reading List or even artificial respiration at keeping such dead ideas alive.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Falsifiability is one of the hallmarks of genuine science. Is there anything, in your mind, that could possibly falsify one or more of the statements found in the bible?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I don't find this sort of information to be readily available. Well, you shouldn't expect to find highly technical scientific information in your local newspaper, on creationist websites, or in the Jack Chick tracts. Perhaps, if you are looking for highly technical scientific information, you should be looking in the technical journals, which take up whole floors in major university libraries. Can you tell us which of the major journals you have examined in search of this information? Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The Bible is the word of God, it's not science, the criterion does not apply. One is to read the Bible using one part to build on another. So, there is nothing in the bible that could possibly be falsified?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Na, the fact is that I DISAGREE with some Geology and that's what you don't like. I don't toe the party line so I'm crazy. Oh well. What you are disagreeing with is reality. You are clinging to your fantasies in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's not the sanest of things one can do.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Many of the fossils seem to have been collected in groups of their own kind, which really ought to be harder to explain on Old Earth theory than Flood theory, which simply transported things as they normally collected together. Sorry, no. Floods are chaotic and don't tend to group like "kinds." With real science (which you erroneously characterize as "Old Earth theory") one would expect to see fossils grouped by time period and geography. That is what we actually see.
Old Earth theory ought to have individuals dying willy nilly here and there among all kinds of other creatures, instead of being collected more or less together in family graves as it were, and of all ages, showing it was whole populations that died at one time rather than normal individual deaths over long periods of time. Of all ages? No. What real science shows is normal population growth and death and accumulation. But since you don't accept scientific dating, you have no business making claims about dating whatsoever. You wouldn't believe anything that contradicted your belief system, so you have no credibility in this realm.
abe: Nautiloids for instance are found in all sizes/ages through out one layer of the Redwall Limestone for thousands of square miles, clearly having been transported as a whole population along with a lot of limestone-forming creatures or sediments. In modern times, populations tend to die at various ages, not all the exact same age. Nautiloids should be found of various ages and sizes. And "transported?" From where? How about they were all just formed there (wherever "there" was at the time)? Another problem for the disproved flood theory--the more you "transport" things in a chaotic manner, the more mixing you will have. You are trying to convince us you will have sorting! What a joke! I guess I have to admire (sort of) your persistence in trying to support the flood "theory" in spite of the overwhelming evidence against it. But there comes a point where persistence becomes pure pig-headed stubborness. I'm afraid you have long since passed that point. Which leads me to wonder what kind of a deity would require one to believe six impossible things before breakfast (per Alice) and a whole lot more afterwards. Don't you ever wonder just who it is that's really trying to fool you?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Since the only "evidence" YOU have is your unreliable easily disrupted radiometric dating... You and other creationists have had ample opportunity to dispute various forms of radiometric dating in our threads here. You (as a group) have failed. The evidence you have presented has been shown to be inaccurate and unsupported time and again. This is true for both your specific claims and others found on creationist websites and in creationist literature. Until you (and creationists as a group) can support your claims that radiometric dating is inaccurate, you have no business making those claims. As Heinlein noted, "Belief gets in the way of learning."Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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yep, can't even get a bump trying to get back on topic. Summary: Evolution is "controversial" only to those who won't accept it for religious reasons, and who do their best to generate "controversy" because of that. Among those actually doing science the only controversy is over the details, as they try to learn more about how it all works. The few real scientists who dispute evolution do so for religious reasons, not scientific ones. And finally, those who dispute evolution for religious reasons try their best to make it appear that they accept scientific methods and findings, while twisting both in an effort to convince themselves that their religious beliefs are supported by science. That should get the thread back on topic--for a moment or two.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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The fact of the matter in my case is that years before I became a Christian, when I still considered myself an atheist, I read the usual popular accounts of evolution and at times tried to track down the evidence for it. It always seemed to disappear into assertions and assumptions. I'm sorry, but your body of posts here has shown that your opinions in matters scientific are not worth anything. You continually read (or skim) scientific articles and come to conclusions which are opposite of what those articles actually say. I don't have any confidence that your skills were any different in the past. Your abilities to misunderstand, misinterpret, and misread are truly astounding.
That didn't keep me from continuing to believe in it, I had no religious objections to it, but it was frustrating, and once I did become a Christian and read some books on creationism I could see why it's so frustrating: the evidence for it IS only assertions and assumptions. Perhaps the early frustration came from your own inabilities? And perhaps the agreement with creationists is a mix of those inabilities and their unwillingness to accept the evidence based on religious grounds? In any case, as I have noted several times, your opinions and pronouncements on science really are not trustworthy. You just seem to have no talent for it, and perhaps should take this into consideration when you tell working scientists, and in fact whole scientific professions, that they don't know anything.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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A lot of assertive words there, declaring the status quo, but not much in the way of truth. Those statements can be backed up, which is a far cry better than what you usually post. But, here's your chance to provide some real support for your arguments: show where established scientists dealing with the broad fields which comprise the study of evolution have contested that theory in peer reviewed journals. And no quote mining, eh?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
So, what age do you ascribe to modern humans?
And what is your evidence?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Before I answer your question, you must answer mine. Nonsense
If all science we observe (science has always rested in the details) can only point to one conclusion would you accept that conclusion?
If that information was presented to me by a creationist, no. Quit dodging. What age do you ascribe to fully modern humans?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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You still have not answered the question:
What date do you put for the origin of modern humans? And upon what do you base your answer?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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