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Author Topic:   Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law
RAZD
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Message 39 of 533 (725598)
04-29-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
04-28-2014 11:08 PM


Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Here's a thought for how to look at the GC with the model shown here

Take a piece of paper and make 5 colored columns

   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze
   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze
   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze
   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze
   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze

Cut the paper into strips

   Continental Land          Sands         Siliciclastic Muds  Carbonate SedimentsCoccolith Foram Ooze

Take your list of Grand Canyon rocks from Message 27 and start at the bottom:

Tapeats ---Sandstone
Vishnu, Zoroaster, Great Unconformity etc. (base)

Put a strip over the sandstone aligned with the " sands " column

then the next level of stone:

Bright Angel ---Shale

Put a strip over the shale aligned with the " Siliciclastic Muds " column

then the next level of stone:

Muav ---limestone (shaly limestone)

Put a strip over the shaly limestone aligned with the " Carbonate Sediments " column

then the next level of stone:

Temple Butte ---limestone

Put a strip over the limestone aligned with the " Coccolith Foram Ooze " column

etc etc etc (I think you get the idea)

Of course there should be a strip aligned with the " Continental Lands " column where there is a discontinuity, but you don't acknowledge the ones that are there (and which have been pointed out to you) so you'll skip that strip.

When you have reached the top you will then have the pattern of sea rise and fall that matches up to the model.

Simple, yes?

Edited by RAZD, : finishing

Edited by RAZD, : changed "eroding lands" to "continental lands" per edge comment [msg=42]

Edited by RAZD, : .


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RAZD
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(2)
Message 40 of 533 (725602)
04-29-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
04-28-2014 12:49 AM


Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
This is what I get (using your list) as a simple\simplistic application of the model to the Grand Canyon rocks:


.......................... Kaibab/limestone ..........................
....................... Toroweap/gypsum/shale ........................
......................... Coconino/sandstone .........................
........................... Hermit/shale .............................
........................ Esplanade/sandstone .........................
........................ Wescogame/sandstone .........................
......................... Mankacha/limestone .........................
........................ Watahomigi/limestone ........................
......................... Redwall/limestone ..........................
....................... Temple Butte/limestone .......................
........................... Muav/limestone ...........................
......................... Bright Angel/Shale .........................
......................... Tapeats/Sandstone ..........................
....................Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity ....................

Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time.

This can, of course be tested.

Edited by RAZD, : info from edge [msg=42]


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-28-2014 12:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 04-29-2014 11:01 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-29-2014 2:17 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Message 43 of 533 (725610)
04-29-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by edge
04-29-2014 11:01 AM


Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Thanks! I've modified it to show what you said.

There are also some erosional discontinuities that would be gray, but I've forgotten where they fit in, and it still doesn't change the overall picture.


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RAZD
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Message 46 of 533 (725626)
04-29-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
04-29-2014 2:17 PM


Re: So just HOW does this model apply to the GC?
Thank you for laying that out, it's very helpful for visualizing what the model is all about. The lateral extensions are where the model is seen to be consistent, not the vertical stack.

Thanks, I probably spent too much time on it, but I wanted to see how it worked out.

I think you may have inadvertently included the Hermit Shale in your revised version of the Coconino Sandstone, however.

Edge Message 42 said it was terrestrial (I originally had it as mud and the coccino as sand), and I figure he is the expert here (I'm no geologist per se just a dabbler).


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RAZD
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Message 57 of 533 (725705)
04-30-2014 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Taq
04-30-2014 5:25 PM


Re: Rox's post on related things
Look at that. They are absolutely flat.

The issue is the top layer of the dunes, a large wave shape on land with minor wind ripples on the surface..

Faith's hypothesis is that it would remain intact as the sea transgresses over them, when it is much more likely that the peaks are washed into the valleys by the waves. Sand is shown as the transition deposition between terrestrial and marine, and thus would have to undergo wave action as the sea rises, leaving a predominantly flattened surface with minor wave ripples.

Then as the sea transgresses further -- the process takes years -- the flattened sands would be covered by muds and then calcites.

Simple


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Taq, posted 04-30-2014 5:25 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taq, posted 04-30-2014 7:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
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RAZD
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Message 62 of 533 (725732)
05-01-2014 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
05-01-2014 1:35 AM


Re: Rox's post on related things
Of course if the SEA TRANSGRESSES OVER THE DUNES then there will be that washing into the valleys ...

Good

... and there will also be the saturation of the dunes which would lose that angle of repose that shows they were formed AERIALLY. ...

Nope. We've been over this before, Faith.

... The angle of repose is different according to whether the sand was dry or wet..

During formation. Once formed they stay in that orientation pattern inside the dunes. Only surfaces are affected by the wave erosion.

Such a random process couldn't possibly form the very straight tight contact lines we see in the photos of the Coconino. You guys are just going out of your way to confuse something that is really very simple.

Those ones that have lots of little variations in their surfaces? The ones where you have to get a mile away from to see them as straight?


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RAZD
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Message 73 of 533 (725834)
05-02-2014 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
05-01-2014 9:17 AM


Re: Question
truly amazing fail

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RAZD
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Message 110 of 533 (726025)
05-05-2014 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Percy
05-05-2014 6:05 PM


ad hoc on ad hoc
...limestones would have been coughed up by the sea itself.

What is your evidence that limestone was scoured off the sea floor, and why would limestone come from the sea floor ...

... especially when limestone redissolves in deep water ... ? Per Dr A's excellent thread ...


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RAZD
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Message 170 of 533 (726645)
05-10-2014 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Archer Opteryx
05-10-2014 4:19 PM


Re: Everything in the world is not made of dried mud
Has any creationist made limestone from mud in one year? They insist it's been done. So why don't they show us? It's the best way to show there's no violation of physical laws involved in the concept.

Well there is the fossilized cowboy boot ...

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/boot.htm

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


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RAZD
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(1)
Message 172 of 533 (726650)
05-10-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Archer Opteryx
05-10-2014 5:35 PM


Re: Everything in the world is not made of dried mud
Yep. It's supposed to be in the 'double wide' creation museum. I went by it when I went to walk in the footsteps of giants (actually dinos, actually got my foot down into the depression - it was an awesome feeling)

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


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RAZD
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Message 236 of 533 (726888)
05-13-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Percy
05-13-2014 5:02 PM


Re: the great unconformity and fantasy fail
In Message 234 Dr Adequate points out that your claim "requires zillions of tons of rock to conveniently vanish into nothing," and also notes that you've been told this before, which was also my reaction.

The tilted layers in the great unconformity were also deposited at some point in the past -- and Faith has no mechanism for depositing those layers in her "model" (fantasy), layers that are absent in the rest of the layering ... which is included in the amount referred to by Dr Adequate ... because they had to be eroded.

Every time we get down to detail, the Faith fantasy fails. That is not a sign of a robust explanation of the evidence.


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RAZD
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Message 255 of 533 (726970)
05-14-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
05-14-2014 9:03 AM


... "Parallel" or ... similar alignments
I wonder if there are any courageous EvCers here, who know that what I've illustrated is in fact a solid definition of "parallel," who would step out of the shadows and say so. ...

What you are talking about is that the layers have generally similar alignment.

Of course this is generally due to one layer being deposited slowly on top of the previous layer with varying thicknesses in the process.


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RAZD
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Message 343 of 533 (727276)
05-16-2014 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by JonF
05-16-2014 9:18 PM


old earth a forgone conclusion
... from a wide number of very different sources that all show the earth is old, very very very old. Evidence that could not possibly exist in a young world ... unless everything is illusion or it was created as an intentional falsehood ...

Enjoy


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RAZD
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Message 462 of 533 (730448)
06-28-2014 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Faith
06-28-2014 3:50 AM


So you all prefer to blow off the obvious implication of the fact that there was no such disturbance for hundreds of millions of years. Every time I see an example of it such as those hills of sculpted strata in the movie I'm struck with the obvious implication that it makes the millions of years bogus and the Flood the best explanation of the phenomena. ...

Even though you have been shown and shown and shown the erosional boundaries between layers and the evidence of other river beds part way up the Grand Canyon wall, and all the other "disturbances" that DID occur ... when just ONE disproves your delusional hypothesis ... you prefer to hide under a blanket of willful ignorance pretending they don't exist.

Even though you have been shown that a great flood would not produce the erosional pattern of the Grand Canyon, but rather the erosional pattern of the scablands, that such erosion does not produce spires and perpendicular canyons and many other features found in the Grand Canyon ... you prefer to deny that the canyon is actually evidence that such a flood did NOT occur during or after it's formation ...

... We'll deal with the radiometric dating eventually. ...

Such as the radiometric evidence of different ages for different parts of the canyon shown by the speleothems and the other evidence of age in the canyon.

... Creationist ministries already have lots of objections to it anyway.

All falsified proclamations, delusional assertions and discredited lies, and none of it supported by objective empirical evidence of the kind found in real science.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ..


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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 463 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 8:05 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Message 485 of 533 (730513)
06-28-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Faith
06-28-2014 8:05 AM


RAZD you "show" me this that and the other and I disagree with it. ...
You also "show" me what you are calling "erosional patterns" in the Grand Canyon and I disagree with all that too. ...

Curiously, your "disagreement" is pure opinion unsupported by a single dust particle of objective evidence, and opinion has been demonstrated to have remarkably negligible effect on reality in any form ...

The MASSIVE erosion of the entire stack of layers all at one time ...

Did NOT occur and moreover COULD NOT have occurred, based on the MASSIVE amount of visible objective empirical evidence that lines the canyon wall.

To think otherwise is delusional.

... Lake Missoula was most probably water left standing after the Flood, as were the other huge "prehistoric" lakes. And then they all drained away, the Missoula catastrophically.

Why is there only ONE scablands, but MANY v-shaped river valleys?

Why does the U-shaped river valley formation caused by massive catastrophic outflow in the Palouse River ...

quote:
Why the Flood Never Happened, Message 387:

Notice the difference between the fairly straight U bottom form of the canyon and the Grand Canyon's meandering V bottom


There is a difference in the valleys because the erosion is different -- Palouse from rapid catastrophic flow, Grand Canyon from typical river flows cutting gradually into the rocks and forming a V-shape. Curiously geologists CAN tell the difference.

For your scenario to be valid the Grand Canyon sections would have to look like the Palouse river canyon sections: they DON'T.

And from what you've written here I have to suppose that you don't know what I'm talking about.

Oh I do Faith, you are talking about pure fantasy ignoring counter evidence delusion.

Enjoy.


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