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Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: ANOTHER Political Quiz | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You didn't address this part:
quote: This could operate in the fashion of the Occupy Movement General Meetings to arrive at a consensus rather than simple up\down majority vote approach. And then there are conventions where laws could be discussed and then voted on, similar to
quote: No doubt. I'm suggesting that that would not be an improvement. Which is an argument for clean simple bills with no frills and loopholes.
Both. And because life is complicated. Which two of the three are both? Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5
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Sorry - can't resist making this flippant rejoinder...
RAZD writes:
Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify. Then why didn't he just say "simplify"???- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
For a start, I would like to point out that several states in the US west of the Mississippi have a referendum process whereby to some degree, at least in regard to state law, there is a form of direct democracy. It may not be as immediate as possible in the internet age (nor given temporary passions, should it be to some extent IMHO), however it is what it is, a form of direct democracy. In Oregon we can vote on bills from initiative petitions if they get enough valid signatures and bills that are referred by the legislature. We also get laws that are passed by the legislature and signed into law by the governor. I am not sure what decides whether it goes to the people or just the legislature. The legislature seems to mostly make decisions about budget items. In the past their we some bills passed by the people that clearly were unconstitutional and cost a bunch of wasted tax money to have repealed. The bills are screened more closely now for obvious flaws but some still slip through. There are usually a few really stupid measures on the ballot and they usually get voted down, but not always. We have had more than our share of the discriminatory anti-gay measures, it seems to me. We have had some that really turned out great and have stood the test of time. Our bottle bill and the public beach bill are 2 that I like. The Oregon coast is all public land. There are no private beaches. Oregonians have have voted down sales taxes something like 9 times and also self-service gas pumping. Occasionally we will have two opposing bills on the ballet and it creates a real mess when they both pass. At least when that happens we all get a good laugh. It does seem to me that on some of the major issues (like health care, Social Security, the future of publicly funded science, etc.) that will affect the whole country, maybe for decades, that some form of referendum should be passed to the voters. I feel this should especially happen in cases where Congress is going against the will of the people by a large margin. Maybe, as polarized as the whole country seems to be right now, we would end up being just as grid locked and angry if the people were voting directly as we are with the assholes in Congress.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Oregonians have have voted down ... self-service gas pumping. What? You can't pump your own gas?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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We mostly look at it as we don't have to pump our own gas. It provides quite a few jobs. Our prices don't seem to be higher than neighboring states where you have to pump your own.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So, its illegal to pump your own gas?
I wouldn't like being unable to pump my own gas when I wanted to, and I'm against criminalizing it. But I like to bag my own groceries too.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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RAZD writes:
I have no objection to the part I didn't object to.
You didn't address this part: RAZD writes:
Sometimes you don't need to fly; we build aircraft for the times when you do need them. Sometimes life is simple, and I like to go with Thoreau: simplify simplify simplify. Whether Thoreau thought life "should" be simple and whether you agree with him are not particularly relevant. There are people who see complications (whether there are any or not) and there are people who like complications. The democratic system has to accomodate those people too.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3986 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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You can't pump your own gas in New Jersey: a common bumper sticker says, "Jersey Girls Don't Pump Gas".
I haven't found any other limits. "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
As I remember, I have voted several times on this and every time I imagined my elderly mother having to pump her own gas in the winter in Bend, Oregon.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Tanypteryx writes
It provides quite a few jobs. Just wondering what a lengthly exposure to gas fumes means for the job worker over a lifetime - do they have the equivalent of Black Lung Insurance? It is very good that they got the lead out, however.Yay. - xongsmith, 5.7d
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Just wondering what a lengthly exposure to gas fumes means for the job worker over a lifetime - do they have the equivalent of Black Lung Insurance? I don't know about that. The pump nozzles have a rubber gizmo the seals against the gas tank filler hole that helps limit the fumes. It used to be that it was mostly high school kids working part time pumping gas, but the guys at my favorite gas station started working there in high school and are still there 30 years later.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Do you think that the country is ready to overturn the 14th amendment? Parts of it, yes. But even as it stands, the 14th Amendment is not interpreted literally right now. If it were interpreted literally, there would be no point to either the ERA and the issue of gay rights would have been settled long ago. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Maybe, as polarized as the whole country seems to be right now, we would end up being just as grid locked and angry if the people were voting directly as we are with the assholes in Congress. Maybe not grid locked. It seems to me that the public is going to make some call if there is a referendum. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Perhaps the best option is a mixture of representation and direct democracy.
Representatives do the brunt of day to day business Reps are subject to recall votes as a direct check\balance on their voting Pay for reps decided by direct votes BTW -- why are reps in US congress paid by the Federal Gov't: shouldn't they be paid by the states they represent? by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3986 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
RAZD writes: BTW -- why are reps in US congress paid by the Federal Gov't: shouldn't they be paid by the states they represent? Maybe they shouldn't be paid at all. They're almost all millionaires--if not when they take office, shortly after. They mostly buy the office, anyway, then make a profit. We the People should get a cut. I find direct democracy a terrifying notion. At least our representative democracy often slows things down enough for the fever of the day to pass. My view mirrors Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry, "Agent of the Terran Empire": Bureaucracies are often chiefly useful for their inertia. Efficiency can be dangerous."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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