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Author Topic:   Evolution falsifies God/s?
faceman
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 226 of 253 (728609)
05-31-2014 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dr Adequate
05-27-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Why would a YEC argue against YEC?
I don't follow your reasoning here. A bicycle is simpler and has fewer parts than a 747; this doesn't mean that bollixing one part of a bicycle is less likely to make it useless than if you did the same to a 747.
Fewer possible deleterious mutations in a fruit fly compared to a human.
I don't follow your example of a bicycle and a 747. Neither are biological life forms capable of reproducing themselves. If they were, then an error in a bicycle could be weeded out (natural selection) far easier since it could only be a few possible parts that "failed". Plus, the bicycles would benefit from such a large population. The 747, on the other hand, would have millions of parts that could fail and a very small population for natural selection to work within.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2014 11:35 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2014 9:41 AM faceman has not replied

  
faceman
Member (Idle past 3407 days)
Posts: 149
From: MN, USA
Joined: 04-25-2014


Message 227 of 253 (728610)
05-31-2014 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 12:23 PM


Re: The Value Of Direct Observation
You are missing the point.
Let me give you an analogy. Suppose we spend a week observing a man walking in Ohio. During the course of our observations, he's walking due East, making an average of ten miles a day. Now, this does not prove, and no-one claims that it proves, that he's walked all the way from the West Coast. To ascertain that, we'd need further data about the earlier stage of his journey.
What it does prove, conclusively, is that there is no mysterious force that ineluctably and inevitably drags everyone due West.
Then you agree that no one can prove we evolved from a monkey, a fish, or a protocell? That's your "walking man" analogy, correct?
You're wrong that no one claims he's walked all the way from the West Coast. That claim is made all the time with those ridiculous evolution charts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 12:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2014 9:27 AM faceman has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 228 of 253 (728611)
05-31-2014 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by faceman
05-31-2014 2:04 AM


Re: Hox
Hox genes mean that a small gentic change can result in new "body plans" in exactly the way you asserted was impossible.
What this has to do with "information" will depend on how you define "information" but whatever definition you use the falsity of your assertion remains.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 05-31-2014 3:19 AM Straggler has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 253 (728614)
05-31-2014 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Straggler
05-31-2014 2:56 AM


Re: Hox
If Hox genes "can result in new body plans" where's the evidence? if there are actual genes that can do this you shouldn't have to wait thousands or millions of years to see the result. But of course as usual this is just theory and assumption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 05-31-2014 2:56 AM Straggler has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(2)
Message 230 of 253 (728625)
05-31-2014 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by faceman
05-31-2014 1:51 AM


No YEC can agree with this article.
faceman writes:
herebedragons writes:
Curious, what do you see as the "take home message" from this article you referenced?
Small population size + genetic drift = no natural selection (or very little).
No. The article is about relatively small population size in eukaryotes meaning greater vulnerability to mildly deleterious genetic drift leading to the positive selection of more complex relationships in proteins in order to compensate for the damage.
Here's the article:
faceman writes:
Here it is in action:
The Achilles' heel of biological complexity
Here's the paper it's based on.
No YEC can possibly agree with the hypothesis being put forward. The complex protein relationships being discussed are an essential part of complex animals like ourselves. It's far more common for creationists to argue that these are irreducibly complex than to link to papers describing how they could evolve. You're shooting yourself in the foot again, as you have been throughout the thread.
There's a difference between liking an uphill battle and voluntarily running into brick walls.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 231 of 253 (728627)
05-31-2014 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
05-31-2014 3:19 AM


Re: Hox
Have you actually looked up hox genes and the associated experiments? Extra limbs, ribs further down the spine, additional wings, legs growing in place of antennae etc.
Very "now".

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 232 of 253 (728628)
05-31-2014 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by faceman
05-31-2014 1:46 AM


lumbering along
The point I'm sure you know I'm getting at, but are pretending not to hear, is that developing the ability to create an eye or an ear ...
You actually mean developing an eye or an ear, not just the (magical) ability to do so -- that ability (to modify the DNA) is already present in all life forms via mutations.
Oh I know you think you are being clever, but it isn't coming out that way. I gave you two examples where there is actual fossil evidence of intermediate forms, one in the formation of the mammal ear from the reptile ear by gradual modification of the elements, and another in the formation of the tetrapod (that's four footed) form from fish elements.
These (and eyes) don't just pop up fully formed in one generation, as you seem to mistakenly imply.
... would be an example of gaining new information ...
Which is still a meaningless phrase of no importance to evolution or the study of evolution.
We have the fossil evidence shows such transitions happened, so either "information" increased or it is irrelevant to evolution.
... (compared to where life began - according you folks anyways).
Which is abiogenesis rather than evolution - according to science anyways.
If no organism can have specific sequences that its species doesn't already own, ...
Boy is that a garbled mess.
... then how did that species acquire those sequences in the first place? ...
By mutations and selection over generations.
... You're contradicting yourself.
Nope, you are misunderstanding. Would you like to try again?
Would 40,000 generations be enough time to create new and useful modifications? ...
Depends on selection pressure. The modification to the reptile bones to form mammal ear bones occurred over millions of years.
... It was tried with Escherichia coli, but the result ...
Was successful use of a new food source. This is similar to the mutations some humans have to process lactose as adults (see Are you a mutant? x man? Can you drink milk?).
... sounds a lot like genetic entropy to me.
Because you don't understand (1) the point of the experiment or (2) the result? Curiously your opinion has negligible effect on reality.
Don't forget one of the greatest examples of all: Coelacanth.
Example of what? Lobed finned fish being an earlier intermediate form?
http://annmccartneyblog.com/2013/01/14/from-fish-to-tetrapod
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 233 of 253 (728630)
05-31-2014 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by faceman
05-31-2014 2:34 AM


Re: The Value Of Direct Observation
Then you agree that no one can prove we evolved from a monkey, a fish, or a protocell?
No, of course I don't agree with that. You can tell that this is not something I agree with by the way that I have never said anything remotely like it.
You're wrong that no one claims he's walked all the way from the West Coast.
I would have been wrong if that was what I had said. But I did not say it, as you can see by reading what I wrote.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 234 of 253 (728632)
05-31-2014 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by faceman
05-31-2014 2:22 AM


Re: Why would a YEC argue against YEC?
I don't follow your example of a bicycle and a 747. Neither are biological life forms capable of reproducing themselves. If they were, then an error in a bicycle could be weeded out (natural selection) far easier since it could only be a few possible parts that "failed". Plus, the bicycles would benefit from such a large population. The 747, on the other hand, would have millions of parts that could fail and a very small population for natural selection to work within.
You seem not to understand natural selection.
Again, I would point out that you don't need us for this, these are not abstruse and specialized questions. You need a book called something like Genetics For Beginners.
Alternatively, you could have paid attention in high school.

This message is a reply to:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 235 of 253 (728639)
05-31-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by faceman
05-31-2014 1:46 AM


New and useful modifications.
faceman writes:
Would 40,000 generations be enough time to create new and useful modifications?
Certainly. You can read about rapid increases in fitness by several different routes over less than 2,000 generations here: Rapid thermal adaptation (pdf)
faceman writes:
It was tried with Escherichia coli, but the result sounds a lot like genetic entropy to me.
Really? When would you expect extinction to set in then? What was it in the mutations described in this paper(pdf) that "sounded" a lot like genetic entropy to you?
One thing it does describe is apparently near neutral potentiating mutations laying the ground for subsequent mutations that face positive selection. There's also a significant addition of genetic material by duplications which are advantageous on arrival. There's also the creation of a new hybrid gene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by faceman, posted 05-31-2014 1:46 AM faceman has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 236 of 253 (728640)
05-31-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by faceman
05-31-2014 1:46 AM


Re: more absurdities
Would 40,000 generations be enough time to create new and useful modifications? It was tried with Escherichia coli, but the result sounds a lot like genetic entropy to me.
What is observed, as I have pointed out, is a clear and verifiable improvement in fitness. If you wish to denote the process that produced this increase by the bizarre phrase "genetic entropy", then feel free to do so. The rest of the world calls it "adaptation", but whatever. You may also call it "chromosomal electromagnetism" if you please. You can call it "a fish wearing a bowler hat" if that makes you happy. By all means throw words together in any daft and meaningless combination that gladdens your little heart. As I have observed before, the process is entirely unaffected by the words you use to describe it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8529
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 237 of 253 (728645)
05-31-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by faceman
05-31-2014 1:46 AM


Re: more absurdities
Would 40,000 generations be enough time to create new and useful modifications? It was tried with Escherichia coli, but the result sounds a lot like genetic entropy to me.
I would like to see your source on this. Does the source give details on the differences in the genome between the first and the 40,000th generation? How different were they?

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silasohe 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3220 days)
Posts: 8
From: Indonesia
Joined: 06-17-2015


Message 238 of 253 (760040)
06-17-2015 1:04 AM


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silasohe 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3220 days)
Posts: 8
From: Indonesia
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Message 239 of 253 (760041)
06-17-2015 1:06 AM


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silasohe 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3220 days)
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Message 240 of 253 (760042)
06-17-2015 1:06 AM


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