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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 276 (730194)
06-25-2014 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
06-25-2014 1:29 AM


Scripture
Your amount of rain calculation is completely irrelevant, which we can discuss if you disagree, but anyways lets focus on scripture instead.

quote:
Gen 7

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.


The Lord is causing the rain. He's purposefully making it rain to destroy his creation. The rain is a direct result of the Lord's specific action. That is a miracle.

So, where did the rain come from?

quote:
Gen 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.


And what are the windows of heaven? Well, what's heaven?

quote:
Gen 1

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven.


Heaven is the firmament that divides the waters above from the waters below.

So, there is a "window" or opening in this firmament that can be opened to let some of the waters above fall to the earth.

What else is said about the windows of heaven?

quote:
Malachi 3

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


So the windows of heaven can be opened up so the Lord can pour out a blessing. Does the blessing have to be water?

quote:
Psalm 78

23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,

24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.


That says doors instead of windows, but other translations use windows and the commentaries parallel this with Gen 7:11, and they are both openings.. So heaven can be opened up to let other things besides water rain down.

The windows of heaven are an opening in the firmament that divides the upper waters from the lower waters and the Lord can open up these openings to let stuff fall down to the earth.

That is nothing like a "vapor canopy" or any cloud-like thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 1:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 276 (730221)
06-25-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
06-25-2014 11:57 AM


Re: Scripture
Everything you quote has "windows" or "doors" of heaven being clearly metaphorical.

Sure, in the sense that they are not talking about something like this:

But the Bible clearly says that there is a solid dome up in the sky that is holding the upper waters, and that there are some kind of openings in it, that the Lord can control, that can let through water and other things.

Or do you think the firmament is a metaphor as well? What would it be a metaphor for? Its solid, or firm, and it has holes in it that let water and mana through. What could that possibly be a metaphor for?

God makes EVERYTHING happen, very little of it miraculous, and there's nothing miraculous about rain.

Yeah, but this isn't just a random rainy day. God was upset with his creation and he wanted to wipe it out with a flood, so he caused it to rain for that specific purpose.

It has to be because of God's will, otherwise it would just be a coincidence that it happened to start raining right when God wanted to flood the world.

You tried to make up some stuff about sin causing the rain, or something, but that just doesn't fit. God was mad, and he caused it to rain, himself. He did it on purpose to destroy his creation. That is a miracle, by definition.

I pulled up all the "I will" phrases in the Bible and those attributed to God are just about all...

Okay, lets look at those exceptions and see what they are talking about. What are the verses?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 11:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 264 of 276 (730225)
06-25-2014 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
06-25-2014 3:10 PM


Re: Scripture
The dome-like APPEARANCE of the heavens or sky from earth I would assume.

No, the Bible clearly states that there is a dome in the sky that is solid and firm. If it wasn't solid, then how does it hold the up the upper waters in the sky? And why would it need holes in it for the water to pour through if it wasn't solid?

We can even see in Job 37:18:

quote:
With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?

The Bible tells us that there is a solid dome in the sky, that has holes in it, and has water above it.

No, but it's extraordinary because it's the first rain ever

That's debatable. In Gen 2:6:

quote:
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Mist coming up from the earth and then watering the ground sounds just like water evaporating and precipitating, which is rain.

but otherwise God didn't DO all that in any unusual way, it's the way He always works in events.

The fact that God did DO it is one of the things that makes it a miracle.

Right and He caused the Babylonians to attack Israel for the specific purpose of punishing them too.

The Babylonians have free will. I agree that God "pushing" them to do something is not really miraculous like when he does something directly himself. Which is what he did with the flood.

See Gen 6:17

quote:
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

The Lord himself, even himself, brought the waters upon the earth.

But that is how all things happen that God causes in the normal course of things. God causes EVERYTHING, as I keep saying, and they all happen "right when" they are supposed to happen whether we have any clue to that fact or not.

There's a difference between God being the cause of everything, and God actually doing something himself. With the Flood, he himself brought the water for his purpose specifically. That's different than how regular things happen on their own but God is behind them.

Not if God also says He causes calamity in a city, causes an enemy to come against Israel, causes a great nation to come of the descendants of Abraham and so on.

Why not?

That makes the Flood a normal event in the way God works.

How so?

But of course it's ALL about sin. No sin no Flood.

I guess, but the sin did not cause the Flood.

quote:
Gen 6

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


God was upset that his creation grew wicked and he wanted to restart it. That's why he flooded the world. He did it, himself. It wasn't just some natural occurrence that was the result of sin. It was the Lord's doing.

That it was a result of the direct action of God, himself, something that he specifically did for his purpose, makes it a miracle. Its different that how "god is behind everything" because in this case he is the specific, immediate, and direct cause of the event.

As they say, it was "By the Hand of God", that is a miracle by definition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 3:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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