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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 3 of 276 (729815)
06-19-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-19-2014 6:25 AM


What are you trying to demonstrate here? That there is sufficient volume of sky in order to produce the Noahic Flood? Nobody disputes that.

The problem with this bunch of nonsense, given that you are not taking into account the "fountains of the deep", is the water cycle. Rain water comes from evaporation from lakes, oceans, etc. So you cannot raise the level of water generally on the earth using rain. All you can obtain is local flooding that will remains until the run off reaches the oceans. But once the water is at sea level, then there would be no runoff time. No more rise in sea level. No possibility of the water covering whatever "little mountains" you believe existed only a few thousand years ago.

You are going to have to produce a natural or super natural source of water in order to create a global flood using rain. I'll leave your silly extrapolation of local rainfall over a few hours to global rain fall over a month and a half for someone else to deal with.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 6:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 276 (729844)
06-20-2014 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Minnemooseus
06-20-2014 1:08 AM


Re: Calculations of water depth if the Earth were a current sea level sphere
The easiest way to do the calculation is to consider the water to be a thin shell covering current the surface of the earth. So the volume of water would be 4*pi*r^2 * h.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-20-2014 1:08 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 21 of 276 (729847)
06-20-2014 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
06-19-2014 7:30 PM


Re: two sources
But since evaporation can't explain the removal of that much water in a period of something like five months we need another explanation. Which is where the dropping of the sea floor becomes a possibility.

Why would this be? How can you reject any explanation that is consistent with the Bible? And evaporation certainly would be.

The Bible does not just say "fountains of the deep" and "raining" are the sources. The Bible says that the opening of the "fountains of the deep" and "the windows of heaven" were the sources of water.

The Bible also tells us that the canopy was still present well after the Flood was over in Psalms 148: 4-6.

In short your explanation is not consistent with the literal words of the Bible, and you are as guilty as anyone else here of departing from the Bible just because science intrudes. So what kind of silly game are you playing here?

And no, it is not even the "Creationist" game. Because Creationists are not of one mind about the processes that took place. AIG absolutely denies that the canopy model works, while ICR is willing to postulate a sun that is only 1% as active that of the current sun in order to keep the planet from baking under a canopy. In both cases we see Creationists picking different parts of science to agree with or disagree with.

ABE: Since supposedly the scientific imagination of an actual scientist would be better at this than our poor creationist attempts, it should be an interesting attempt worthy of your training.

Actually, the game you are playing is sheer folly. There are a thousand different points of departure from science, and no particular reason to reject any non-scientific explanation given that all science can be scrapped to produce the result you want. It seems that about the only explanation you won't accept is that God exerted himself in the slightest.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 7:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 6:22 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 276 (729850)
06-20-2014 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
06-20-2014 6:22 AM


Re: two sources
I can't make any sense out of what you are saying.

I said you were a liar and a fraud.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 6:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 276 (729852)
06-20-2014 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2014 6:42 AM


Pull the lever that opens the hatch that lets the fountains of the deep out?

Here is one Creationists take on that question:

http://www.kjvbible.org/geysers.html

quote:
This "mist" seems to indicate that there was a great deal of heated water present under the Earth and relatively close to the surface, or at least making its way to the surface at various places in order to produce this mist. A Divine reconfiguration of the Earth's geology, during the process of the seven days of Genesis when God made the "foundation of the world" (See the chapter entitled "Creation or Catabolism?"), is the only possible explanation. Surely the Lord knew that He had created an unstable situation that would eventually cause the flood centuries later in the days of Noah. Granted, this is not a scientific answer, but one that is theologically sound given our understanding of God's omnipotence and foreknowledge.

In other words, when God told Noah about the Flood and its cause, he was simply acting as a very accurate meteorologist.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 6:42 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 29 of 276 (729858)
06-20-2014 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-20-2014 8:37 AM


Re: why not miracle
None of these things in themselves is anything miraculous that God says He does or is going to do.

When God says he is going to open the windows of Heaven, there is every reason to believe that the act being spoken of is supernatural. In fact, that is the obvious explanation for everything that does not happen according to physics. Why is it not a use of nature to allow the sun to move backwards, and yet it is a use of nature to suspend water in a canopy above the earth. There is absolutely nothing textual to support any distinction between those things.

Certainly not just because you say so.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 8:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by JonF, posted 06-20-2014 10:52 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:01 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 276 (729864)
06-20-2014 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:01 AM


Re: why not miracle
I gave my reasons based on my understanding of scripture why I think not

You have not provided any reason that would distinguish between the sun moving backwards, and water being suspended above the earth. My comment that there is no textual reason would be easy to rebut with a textual reason. I note that you did not bother giving one even in your response.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 37 of 276 (729868)
06-20-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
06-20-2014 11:56 AM


Re: why not miracle
Seemed obvious to me I guess. The miracles are all one-time events that clearly violate natural laws, the sun moving backwards being a clear example of that.

I think the flood qualifies under that definition. As does opening the windows of heaven.

It is as I thought. Your reason is not text based.

The water being suspended above the earth, on the other hand, is understood to have been there from the Creation until its release over 1500 years later

That is not the understanding of people who read the Bible. The canopy is described as being still present in Psalms 148 as many commentators have noted. So when did it disappear?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 276 (729869)
06-20-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by JonF
06-20-2014 10:52 AM


Re: why not miracle
She's infallible.

I'll settle for that answer. What I won't settle for is that she gleaned her position from the Bible, or that it is the 'traditional Protestant view' or anything similar.

But the issue is really at the heart of this thread. Why even bother doing a calculation about the permissible rate of rain fall if you don't deal with the source of the water. Other than demonstrating mastery of the twelve times tables, what was the point of that display of arithmetic in the OP?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by JonF, posted 06-20-2014 10:52 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 276 (729875)
06-20-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
but there can be various ways of reading the Bible and on this point differences of opinion are not crucial. Mine follows the basic idea here:

The above is followed by a list of links that simply don't point out the place in the text where the actions in question are not miracles. You are not being asked here whether the actions happened, but instead about what the Bible says is the nature of the actions. For that reason, your post is a complete failure to address the issue at hand.

just please allow me the right not to read it as a miracle.

You can believe whatever you want. But if we are not going to visit the text, and question your stance on what it says, then what is the point of this debate? Yes, 5 times 12 is indeed 60. Discussion over?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 276 (729877)
06-20-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
I see it as opening on its own the way the clouds still always open on their own to release rain

Is this some kind of joke?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 276 (729911)
06-21-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
06-21-2014 6:46 AM


Re: why not miracle
No, that is not the case I am making. The case I am making is that the scripture does not present the mechanics of the Flood as miraculous.

Yes, and your case is readily seen as weak to non-existent.

What part of the scripture presents the aggregating of the animal as miraculous? Did you not just agree that such was miraculous without checking to see how it was presented in the text.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 6:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 110 of 276 (729959)
06-22-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-21-2014 7:25 PM


Re: why not miracle
We can gather from Genesis 1:7 that the original Creation seems to have had a store of "waters" in the atmosphere quite a bit more extensive than our clouds contain since the Flood.

Does, in fact, Genesis say that the water came from the atmosphere? No. So when you use the word gather, what you are actually doing is filling in what you perceive as gaps with non-Biblical explanation.

Genesis actually lists two sources of water and says nothing about water coming from the atmosphere. If rain is literally rain, then it came from the limited supply of clouds. If God made more clouds, that would be miraculous If the rain was not literally rain, then the source is miraculous.

We also gather that there were no deserts, that the whole Earth was lush and green. No high mountains, no snow and ice.

None of which is specified anywhere in Genesis. Wholly made up, and, with the possible exception of the high mountains, of absolutely no relevance to the story in Genesis. Just more extra-Biblical nonsense.

The Bible tells us there was no man and no rain in Genesis 2:5. So we don't have to guess whether rain was part of the original creation. But at least one of those things was different by the time of the Flood. And there is nothing to say about whether or not both things were different.

So when people say they don't "gather" what you gather, the issue is not necessarily a lack of belief. It is that they don't take the same liberties with the text that you do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 7:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:59 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 123 of 276 (729979)
06-22-2014 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:27 PM


Re: why not miracle
You think I have a problem with the scientific method but that's because of a prejudice of your own against the Bible, not because I actually have such a problem.

You've made so many anti-science comments and called scientists stupid so many times, both here and on your blog, that we know that this statement cannot possibly be true.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 276 (729983)
06-22-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:59 PM


Re: why not miracle
I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me.

Exactly so. I don't think you are unique, just non-Biblical.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:16 PM NoNukes has responded

  
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