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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 276 (729978)
06-22-2014 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
06-22-2014 2:46 PM


Re: why not miracle
What resources does prayer require?

I should have said something more like "Hope of success is beyond our meager resources." It would be hard enough, and probably impossible really, to get a few hundred people praying with enough consistency and fervency to make the Mojave desert bloom, but when you are talking about praying to solve the problem of millions of people displaced by evil political machinations in the name of militant Islam, that would take millions of prayer warriors praying around the clock, a tall order. Of course, as you say, we can all pray about it anyway and hope we have some positive impact on the problem. Usually it's a great thing if we have enough united prayer to deal with a local problem in the local church.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 06-22-2014 2:46 PM ringo has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 276 (729980)
06-22-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 2:18 PM


Re: why not miracle
How is his explanation different from the ones you have posted that say exactly the same thing? You yourself have said repeatedly that sinners and the like is what determines rain.
Are you now saying sin has no effect on rain? DA tried to actually give a workable explanation how sinners can cause droughts or floods. Why won't you do the same?

Dr. A was giving his usual slapstick version of what I'd said about how the human moral condition affects the physical universe. It had some bits of the truth in it but was a parody, intended to make the idea look ridiculous.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 2:18 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 276 (729981)
06-22-2014 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 6:46 PM


Re: why not miracle
You've made so many anti-science comments and called scientists stupid so many times, both here and on your blog, that we know that this statement cannot possibly be true.

Nope I've never said one thing that is "anti-science," all I've ever said is that the sciences that purport to interpret the unknowable past are a crock. Otherwise science is great stuff when it deals with actual knowable testable information. I know you all refuse to understand this absolutely crucial distinction but I guess I can keep repeating it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 6:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 276 (729982)
06-22-2014 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 11:27 AM


Re: why not miracle
I don't see any point in trying to get into the specifics with you. I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me. If you have a different source of interpretation, fine, but mine is NOT unique to me.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 276 (729985)
06-22-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:12 PM


Re: why not miracle

I take my view of these Biblical points from what I've read by creationists, it's hardly unique to me.

Exactly so. I don't think you are unique, just non-Biblical.

But of COURSE. There is no such thing as a Biblical view that is different from yours.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 276 (729986)
06-22-2014 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:15 PM


Re: why not miracle
The scientific method works well only with testables, it COULD work a lot better with the unknowables of the past but once it's committed to its hidebound assumptions and ridiculous interpretations of the Geological Column and the fossil record and all that, it's a hopeless case.

I have the word of God to guide me on the unknowables of the past whereas science has only the fallen human mind.

See previous post on your notion that my view is unbiblical.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 276 (729988)
06-22-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 7:25 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of. Have you really "put away" your allegorical view of Genesis or is that what is leading you to these absurd objections?

What I've noted and commented on repeatedly is that you seem utterly unable to attach your interpretations of the Bible regarding the sources of water to the text of the Bible itself, instead citing "other Creationists" as your sources. That's not something I am going to respect in a debate. Besides that, plenty of other Creationists disagree with you.

Oh STUFF AND NONSENSE!

I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others. Go back and read the last few pages. I start out referring to the Bible, get this weird accusation that my Biblical view is somehow unique to me, so I then refer to other creationists and now I get this weird accusation that they are my source rather than the Bible. It doesn't mean I don't have my own view of the Bible, it means that I share it with many, it's not just my own made-up view. This ought to be obvious it seems to me but apparently anything I say can be twisted in a dozen different ways. I do get the impression that nothing I say matters to anybody, you're just all trying to find some word or other you can use to twist it into something else.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 7:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 9:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 276 (729993)
06-22-2014 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:17 PM


Re: why not miracle
discovered that the Bible is a more trustworthy source being the word of God and all.

That is fine for faith and belief matters. But you are taking part in a science thread and you continue to rail against science.

I guess you're never going to get it are you? You can't follow the logic of what I'm saying because your mental bias has hardened into concrete.

Just for your information, about six or seven of those thirteen years I've been a member here I was not posting anything or even reading the forums. Actually may be more like eight or nine.

As for whom I may or may not have swayed, who knows. But the hardened bias IS pretty thick here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:17 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 276 (729994)
06-22-2014 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:19 PM


Re: why not miracle
What Dr. Adequate said was no different than anything you said apart from his actually having some explanatory power. You only object because it was him saying it and not you. There is literally nothing he said that departs from the spirit of what you've said.

What an absurd idea. I'd be really happy if Dr. A said it in the spirit I said it rather than ridiculing it.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 276 (729996)
06-22-2014 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:36 PM


Re: why not miracle
That's very sad. Wrong, and sad.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 276 (730000)
06-22-2014 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 9:21 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of.

Obviously there is more to the issue than that.

Obviously? Not that I've ever claimed.

In order to justify your claim that the sources of the flood are not miraculous, you find the need to depart from both the Bible and science.

Nonsense. I see neither the waters above the firmament nor the fountains of the deep as miraculous, but as natural conditions of the pre-Flood world. You are continuing to make stuff up.

For example, you say that the windows of heaven opened the same way clouds do today to release rain. Well clouds do not open up. Clouds are water vapor, so that's obviously not correct. There is no similarity whatsoever between the way water vapor drops form and fall from clouds and opening of the windows of heaven. You just pretend there is so that you can claim that opening of the windows of heaven is not a miracle despite the fact that it meets your own definition.

The water canopy theory of creationists is about water VAPOR, a LOT of it, suspended in the atmosphere, which is exactly the situation with clouds. Therefore it would have rained exactly the same way clouds do, and the opening of the windows of heaven is a metaphor for that first cloudburst. There certainly IS a similarity and that's what I was talking about. Why are you making it into something else? You have some idea of your own about "windows of heaven" which neither I nor the creationists I agree with have, yet you feel free to upbraid us with YOUR idea?

The windows of heaven being opened was the condensing of the VAPOR of the "canopy" into rain: http://creationwiki.org/Canopy_theory

That idea may have been discredited but it seems to be mostly just that it's not the only source of the Flood water because the fountains of the deep is included. In any case you are imposing some idea of your own on me. The canopy idea IS about VAPOR, the stuff clouds are made of, and its becoming rain is all the opening of the windows of heaven referred to.

Then I have to remind you that the water canopy did not disappear at the end of the events in Genesis, something that reinforces the conclusion that the opening of the windows of heaven was a one time event.

I never said it disappeared so your saying it didn't wasn't something I felt some need to answer. I just didn't know why you were saying it. The canopy vapor was originally much fuller, that's all. Again you are upbraiding me based on some assumption of your own, though what I've said is completely consistent, and NOT miraculous.


I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others.

I'm not interested in how many other people believe as you do,

And I'm not interested in what you're interested in if you can't get what I say in its proper context. I'm not only talking to you in this thread you know, I've been answering a lot of people.

...because the question is not about doctrine but about the text. I've asked you on several occasions to tie your interpretation of things to the Bible. You've responded with things like, please let me believe what I wanted to believe, and accused me of accepting only a single interpretation, or cited other Creationists, or told me that it is useless to pursue details. In short, you've stayed as far away from citing the Bible in answering the question as is possible.

You seem to have been having some conversation of your own with some other person you call "Faith" but who isn't me because I have no idea what you are talking about. My memory of this thread is that I've many times referred to the fountains of the deep and the waters of the firmament, BOTH BIBLICAL REFERENCES, as the source of the Flood waters. You are possibly misreading things I've been saying to others since I don't even recall having all that much of a conversation with you personally up until this point. In any case I don't recognize your version of the conversation at all.

At this point I don't expect you to do any better.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 9:21 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 276 (730002)
06-22-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
06-22-2014 9:50 PM


Re: why not miracle
I believe I've provided all the facts necessary to support whatever I've said.

Edited by Faith, : Remove first half of sentence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 10:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 147 of 276 (730003)
06-22-2014 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 9:43 PM


Re: why not miracle
Might as well concentrate on making a perfectly circular green ring around Las Vegas and not bother with turning the whole desert green. I'll let you know when I have the hundreds lined up for the project.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 149 of 276 (730005)
06-22-2014 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Percy
06-22-2014 10:04 PM


Re: why not miracle
Yes his post was confusing, thanks for trying to sort it out. I get now what he meant but he still hasn't seen that his first answer didn't convey that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 10:04 PM Percy has seen this message

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 720 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 151 of 276 (730007)
06-22-2014 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 10:34 PM


Re: why not miracle
I was just making a general statement that I feel I've made my case well enough. But if you want a list perhaps you should tell me what sort of facts you think I've left out, in support of what claim I've made, and then I'll try to make a list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 10:34 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 10:56 PM Faith has replied

  
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