Creation Science is a special study of Genesis for the specific purpose of answering the false sciences of Evolution and the Old Earth | Creation science is a pack of lies, half-truths, misleading statements, and false science intended to support a particular position that is asserted to be "The Truth" |
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It's an attempt to preserve the word of God as the word of God against the tide of false science that causes so many people to lose faith in it. That's the only "particular position" involved. And the word of God IS the Truth. All the finagling to change the translation and read millions of years into the text and all the other shenanigans are also ways to try to preserve the text against the general assault, but by altering God's word rather than defending it, and I think a great deal of Creation Science does a pretty good job.
| I began my journey about 7 years ago and I was a YEC, simply by default - because that is just what Christians believed. |
Yes, that's how most people are YECs. It's a very vulnerable position to be in because all you have is what you've been told. I started out knowing zip about any of it, became a Christian in the late 80s, started reading Creation Science in the early 90s, so I got it all fresh you could say and was convinced by it -- was convinced by the general enterprise at least and a lot of the specifics.
| That's what the Bible says, right? I was a bit offended by a friend of mine who took a more liberal approach to the issue of origins and stated the we don't know, God could have used evolution or whatever means he wanted to create. I remember telling my wife "He's a bit too liberal for me." Well, I lead the youth group at my local church and someone introduced me to the "Answers in Genesis" idea and it made a lot of sense to me. Genesis was the foundation of the Bible, the starting point. If that crumbles, the whole Bible crumbles, right? So I decided to do a series on creation vs. evolution for youth group. I was given a book by Kent Hovind that "debunked" evolution and made sense of the "truth" about creation. As I worked though that book, I began to notice things that just didn't make sense. By the time I was finished with it, I was scratching my head and thinking, "something just doesn't add up." I began to do some of my own research on the subject and it was during that time that I found my way here to EvC. I started finding that these creation science claims were not all they were claimed to be (to say the least). |
Pardon me if I say that if you were convinced by the stuff at EvC you are a pushover.
| My faith was crushed. What I was discovering was that the Biblical claims (or more specifically creation science claims which were presented as Biblical claims) did not hold true. Genesis was crumbling around me and so was my faith, because, of course, if Genesis falls so does the entire Bible. I managed to maintain a semblance of normalcy, but inside I was on the verge of becoming an atheist. |
This is a very typical very sad story. And yet it's all based on an illusion of science and not on science. Maybe I will try to put together a thread on the scientific method as I suggested, not that I think I know enough to do the best job or that I'd even be particularly good at it, but just because I'm the only one here with the passion for it. It infuriates me that this bogus science of the past has the power to convince people away from the Bible when it's nothing but a huge flimflam deception house of cards fantasy. Biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the human race.
| One of the things this search did for me was re-kindle my love of science. I was a displaced worker (from the automotive industry) so I was unemployed and unable to find suitable work. I decided to go back to school and pursue a career in biology. My wife worked at a local Christian liberal arts university and I was able to enroll in classes for free. I fell in love with the biological sciences. |
Despite all the accusations against me here I think science is great stuff. REAL science.
| I had some really strong Christian professors who were not YEC, and I began to have hope that there may be some way to reconcile this conflict. My personal conflict eased a bit and I kind of sat on the fence for a while, unsure; thinking that if I just didn't really face it, it would just not be an issue. The turning point for me came when I took a course called "Genes and Speciation." 1/3 of the course explored how speciation occurred, 1/3 looked at the history of the earth from a scientific view, and 1/3 spent time comparing the different views on origins. The course was taught by one of the most intelligent men I have ever met. He is also a very devout Christian and a lover of the Bible. He leads the Bible quizzing group at his church and practically has the entire Bible memorized (no seriously). When he worked out at the gym, he would have his Bible in front of him and would be memorizing scripture. He is also an amazing scientist, he has published numerous journal articles and a book on stem cell research. |
He must have been very impressive. But he also has to have retranslated or otherwise changed Genesis to accommodate some of his views of science, yes?
| One of the assignments was to read and review a YEC book. The book I choose was Jonathan Sarfati's Refuting Evolution. What I found was that not one of his "refutations" was unequivocally true. Every one of his claims was either a half truth, a misrepresentation or simply misleading. EVERY ONE! Now I realize that one book does not speak for the whole of creation science, but Sarfati is well respected in YEC circles; Refuting Evolution is a highly regarded book by YECs. And yet it is full of untruth; full of it! Not an occasional error but the entirety. (It is not the only creation science source I have explored and few of them fare any better) |
Of course such a paragraph is nothing but a statement of your opinion, the impact it had on you, and I haven't read Sarfati. Yours is a typical opinion one encounters all the time.
| This did it for me, it broke any connection I had to YEC. At this point I was unsure about how to resolve this "conflict" but I knew I was not a YEC. Do we defend the truth of the Bible with lies, half-truths, misrepresentations and made up nonsense? I can't accept that. But to a YEC, it doesn't matter how dishonest the approach is; as long as it defends the initial premise. |
Excuse me but I BELIEVE what I say whether you do or not. My guess about what happened to you was that you were persuaded by the usual presentations of historical science that use all the right terminology and sound good but are not really sound.
| Faith, I write this not to convince you that I am right in my opinions, but so that you can see that it is not that I have some agenda to discredit the Bible or to shoehorn my beliefs into the Biblical account, but that I came about this position in an honest, sincere search for the truth. |
That's fine. Your story is interesting. I didn't think of you as lying though, although you apparently don't extend the same grace to me. I just think you are wrong, got persuaded to an illusion of science.
| And this search found YEC wanting, empty of truth. And I know that there are many non-YEC Christians who have had a very similar experience as my own. As well, there are many who were unable to reconcile their faith because of YEC teaching and have fallen away. I also want to point out that you are doing this typical YEC nonsense in this very thread. You will cling to the vapor canopy idea despite that fact that it is completely untenable. |
The arguments used against it are just the usual stuff, and I haven't spent time on the idea, it just came up in this thread, so don't talk about how I'm "clinging" to anything. I'm just sick of the delusions that pass for science and are forced on people here. All those calculations about what WOULD have happened with a vapor canopy cannot be anything but conjecture, no consideration of any possibly mitigating circumstance. The first idea is enough for these guys. It's all mere conjecture and it's used to topple anything any YEC proposes, mere conjecture because those things cannot be KNOWN, and I'm sick of being called names because I don't give in to the vaporings (pardon the pun) of kneejerk Bible debunkers. I don't care what the vapor canopy was or if it's the right word for whatever existed, but something existed and the idea is NOT stupid and has NOT been proved untenable on the basis of a few pseudoscientific musings. Sorry.
| You deviate from a clear reading of the text which paints a picture far different from a vapor canopy and yet you cling to this un-Biblical idea tenaciously (NoNukes pointed out this in Message 236). And you expect anyone to buy into this? |
I haven't deviated from anything.
| Truly I don't expect you to become an old earther or whatever, that is not what I am trying to accomplish by having this discussion. What I want you to acknowledge is that just because I (and others) have a different approach to understanding the book of Genesis, doesn't make us non-believers. It doesn't mean we hate the Bible or want to destroy it. There is not an agenda to turn the Bible into a myth. It is a sincere, honest search to understand reality, to reconcile what Scripture says with what we observe in the physical world. |
I haven't questioned your motives, but to accomplish your aims leads you to discredit the Bible and that's what I object to.
| However, what I am expecting you will do is cling to your ideas like you are infallible. No quarter; no possibility of looking at this issue through someone else's eyes. |
That's ridiculous. It's very clear that to hold the position you hold requires twisting the Bible in one way or another. You may be doing that "sincerely" but from my point of view this is not just another way of looking at reality, this is attacking God's truth. I don't care about vapor canopy, I just resent the way all YEC ideas are treated as stupid based on nothing but flimsy kneejerk half-baked biased pseudoscience, which you seem to be supporting.
| I expect that you will not abandon the vapor canopy idea no matter what, because it is all you've got. |
I have never in my life argued a word for the vapor canopy until this thread and in this case I got pushed into it by the stupid anti-YEC arguments, so I think YOU need to get a lot clearer about what *I* am saying before you pass judgment as you are doing.
| I expect that you won't even really read this post because its too long and you don't really care what I have to say anyway. The only thing that matters is that you be right. So be it. |
I think you need to turn that criticism on yourself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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