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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 276 (729877)
06-20-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-20-2014 1:01 PM


Re: why not miracle
I see it as opening on its own the way the clouds still always open on their own to release rain

Is this some kind of joke?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 276 (729878)
06-20-2014 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
06-19-2014 6:25 AM


An inch a minute all over the earth would be
Sixty inches an hour or five feet an hour
Ten feet in two hours, twenty in four, forty in eight,
120 feet in 24 hours. Or 4800 feet by the end of the forty days and nights of the rainfall. That would pretty well cover the pre-Flood mountains which weren’t anywhere near as high as the mountains we have now that were formed by tectonic force.

0.025 metres a minute would be
1.5 metres an hour
36 metres in a day
1,440 metres in 40 days

Just for the SI fans.

Incidentally, educated estimates of mountain heights don't seem to enter into writing until the Greeks around 4th Century BC which is considerably after anyone else. How do you know the height of Himalayan mountains in whenever, 2300 BC?


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 Message 1 by Faith, posted 06-19-2014 6:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 48 of 276 (729879)
06-20-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-20-2014 8:37 AM


Re: why not miracle
But perhaps you could answer the question. How did God cause it to happen?

What you seem to be suggesting --- stop me if I'm wrong --- is that when he was poofing things into existence, he poofed the weather and these "fountains of the deep" in such a way that they were bound to cause a flood 1500 years later. Is that your claim?

It's not the message the Bible seems intended to convey, but I guess you can interpret it how you like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 8:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 276 (729881)
06-20-2014 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2014 4:45 PM


Re: why not miracle
The idea is that sin, the Fall, had an effect on the physical Creation that brought about disease and death and destruction of many other kinds that found expression at the Flood and in other physical events.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 4:45 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 9:16 PM Faith has responded
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 10:16 PM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 50 of 276 (729882)
06-20-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-20-2014 9:00 PM


Re: why not miracle
Are you hypothesizing a naturalistic mechanism by which eating a piece of fruit can change the weather so as to cause a global flood 1500 years later?

If so, could you fill us in on the details?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 10:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 276 (729883)
06-20-2014 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2014 9:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
I don't know how it works, but scripture speaks of "the fullness of time" until various events are to come about in various contexts, disasters being clearly understood to be punishment for sin. At some point God speaks of the sins of the Canaanites as not yet full, so that He waits until it is full to bring the Israelites into their land. I can't find the scripture verse for that, possibly one of those problems caused by the cacophony of translations. Judgments of nations have to do with the accumulation of sin. Anyway, the Flood would have been the result of the more than 1500 years of sin that had accumulated in the human race since the Fall. While all these things have to do with God's sovereign judgments, they also have a fine-tuning that suggests an exactness of timing that has an automatic aspect to it, as something built into the nature of the universe itself that affects it physically.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 9:16 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 10:19 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 PM Faith has responded
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2014 2:04 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 52 of 276 (729884)
06-20-2014 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-20-2014 9:00 PM


Re: why not miracle
Do you have the natural mechanism and model that explains how sin, the Fall, had an effect on the physical Creation that brought about disease and death and destruction of many other kinds that found expression at the Flood and in other physical events?

Please present it since you claim the Biblical Floods were not a miracle.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 12:25 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 53 of 276 (729885)
06-20-2014 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
06-20-2014 10:05 PM


Re: why not miracle
Anyway, the Flood would have been the result of the more than 1500 years of sin that had accumulated in the human race since the Fall. While all these things have to do with God's sovereign judgments, they also have a fine-tuning that suggests an exactness of timing that has an automatic aspect to it, as something built into the nature of the universe itself that affects it physically.

And you are about to present the natural mechanism and model that will explain all that or is this just more Creationist Biblical Bullshit?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 10:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 54 of 276 (729887)
06-20-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
06-20-2014 10:05 PM


Re: why not miracle
If sin can make it rain then I have a great plan to cure the next drought ... the Governor of Texas had people praying for rain, which could only be counterproductive. Instead they should have thrown a big party with plenty of booze and hookers. I am prepared to offer my services as a sinner, I ask only my travelling expenses and a modest stipend for buying drugs with.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 10:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 12:14 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 276 (729888)
06-21-2014 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dr Adequate
06-20-2014 11:56 PM


Re: why not miracle
The problem of course is that rain is a blessing rather than a curse in conditions of drought, so I'm afraid that if you want to contribute your services to bring rain to Texas you would have to repent of your sins, get many Texans to repent of their sins as well, and of course pray along with them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-20-2014 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 1:43 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 276 (729889)
06-21-2014 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-20-2014 10:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
'Tis of course not a "natural mechanism" that does all this, but a spiritual mechanism, which science, alas, has no way of measuring and therefore no way of acknowledging. But there are always secondary or proximate causes, long chains of causes, that can keep the scientists busy.

Meanwhile we can learn from the Bible, if we have a mind to, that this entire universe is spiritually ruled, ruled by the Moral Law of God, that nothing occurs that doesn't have an ultimate or primary spiritual cause. We live in a sort of spiritual soup one might say, in which spiritual forces are continually active, and to which our own motives and actions, good or bad, sinful or repentant, contribute their effects.

Buddhist adepts, as well as some Hindu practitioners and others, can know something of this spiritual nature of the cosmos (how "karma" operates) although by their methods they will never know the God who made it, or find the way to salvation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-20-2014 10:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 06-21-2014 8:41 AM Faith has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 57 of 276 (729890)
06-21-2014 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
06-21-2014 12:14 AM


Re: why not miracle
So the weather is affected not only by my moral condition but also by whether I want it to rain or not: if I'm good and want it to rain, it'll rain, if I'm bad and I don't want it to rain, it'll rain, if I'm good and want it not to rain, it won't rain, and so forth ...

Of course, the Bible says that God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." But never mind the Bible, your theory is much more interesting. How do you suppose we should test it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 12:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 2:09 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7006
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 58 of 276 (729892)
06-21-2014 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
06-20-2014 10:05 PM


Re: why not miracle
How does sin cause a selection of every animal on earth to present themselves to a single point in the middle East at a single point in time, just in time?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 06-20-2014 10:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-21-2014 2:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 276 (729893)
06-21-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
06-21-2014 1:43 AM


Re: why not miracle
You imagine a contradiction where there is none.

I don't suppose there is a way to test it. The moral influences of hundreds, thousands or millions of people, even as they change from day to day or minute to minute, all have to be calculated into the mix, along with the history of the location and all the minute to minute moral influences contributed by former inhabitants back generations, plus blessings and punishments already received and so on. You're a mathematician, you work it out.

Repentance, however, is powerful. If you could get a few hundred atheists, including yourself of course, to change their minds about God, give up their sins and give themselves to Jesus Christ, to live morally good lives, and pray fervently and believingly for specific blessings on a place to which you've gathered them, you might see some pretty dramatic changes in a very short period of time. I wish you God's blessings on such an experiment.

ABE: It might be a good test to pick a very difficult location, like Mongolia or Siberia, to set up shop and pray for favorable weather for planting crops. You might have to stay there a few years to make it a real test.

ABE: Or take them to a strife-ridden part of Africa where Muslims are always killing Christians. You'd have to commit to intensive prayer and loving your enemies around the clock.

Or where there is horrible disease, AIDs or Ebola or something like that.

ABE: I often wish we Christians would get together in such a way for such causes, but we're a disorganized bunch I fear. Maybe a bunch of converted atheists committed to a science project would do better. You WOULD have to become Christians though.

ABE: No, here's a big challenge: Las Vegas, where you live. Both the physical climate the moral climate could use an overhaul there.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 1:43 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 3:52 AM Faith has responded
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-21-2014 3:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 06-21-2014 4:50 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32661
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 60 of 276 (729894)
06-21-2014 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
06-21-2014 2:04 AM


Re: why not miracle
Now that may be regarded as a miracle. Unless we think in terms of animals having a special sense that moves them in such a way, as they apparently sense some natural things like earthquakes in advance.

ABE: But selecting by twos and sevens, no, I have to agree, that's a miracle.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2014 2:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2014 3:35 AM Faith has responded

    
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