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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 111 of 1304 (731369)
05-05-2014 9:10 PM


Wrong (again)
The different times idea is an artifact of the Old Earth model; the Flood happened in about one year about 4300 years ago and maybe some day you'll bring your model into conformity with this truth.

Sorry, you are absolutely wrong (again).

We have a tremendous number of archaeological sites dating to that time period--I've examined probably over a hundred myself. There is no evidence of a large flood anywhere near that time period.

We have a number of great examples of DNA continuity from before that date to after it, with more being produced every week. I even have one from my own personal research, a link from about 5,300 years ago to a living individual in the same area. The mtDNA from Noah's female associates did not replace the older Native American mtDNA. That continuity alone disproves the flood idea at about 4,350 years ago.

You can quibble about dating all you want, but various threads on this site have shown your quibbles are wrong. The dating of those time periods is accurate and all the creationists' "what ifs" have not managed to change that.

As Heinlein noted, "Belief gets in the way of learning." You're the poster child for that concept.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 136 of 1304 (731394)
05-09-2014 9:38 AM


In other words you can't even bring yourself to imagine what a worldwide Flood might do. Such as cover whole continents with very long waves during its rise or fall. Ah well, only to be expected.

A worldwide flood would break the continuity of mtDNA, with replacement from Noah's female kin's mtDNA.

We do not see this.

We see continuity of mtDNA across the 4,350 time period assigned to the flood. Its so easy to get that I even have an example from my own archaeological research. (I posted this upthread, but you ignored it.)

And don't quibble about the dating--that's a settled issue.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 155 of 1304 (731413)
05-09-2014 10:44 PM


Bump for Faith
Since you are trying to ignore this, I'll repost it. Again.

-------------

A worldwide flood would break the continuity of mtDNA, with replacement from Noah's female kin's mtDNA.

We do not see this.

We see continuity of mtDNA across the 4,350 time period assigned to the flood. Its so easy to get that I even have an example from my own archaeological research. (I posted this upthread, but you ignored it.)

And don't quibble about the dating--that's a settled issue.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 443 of 1304 (731701)
05-23-2014 6:42 PM


Re: my summation
I'm not interested in your answers, they are all about TIME and time has nothing to do with this, that's just the box you all think in.

You should be very interested in time, as time has everything to do with the things we are all discussing.

You are trying to compress time by a factor of some 5000 to 50,000x from what everyone else has concluded so you don't just get to hand-wave it all away.

I answered your post clearly enough, try thinking outside your box for a change, I did give good reasoning for the Flood.

You have demonstrated time and again that it is you who can't think outside of the box. You are willing to ignore or obfuscate any data that disagrees with your religious belief.

You made yourself not just blind, but deaf and dumb besides.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 563 of 1304 (731847)
06-30-2014 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Guyana tepui
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.

That, perhaps, is a big part of your problem.

Flat formations can be formed in many ways.

You make a flat "formation" when you cook a pancake!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Faith, posted 06-30-2014 7:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by edge, posted 07-01-2014 3:01 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 687 of 1304 (732109)
07-03-2014 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:19 PM


Something else for you to deny
I did say that the Missoula flood was a limited flood and not THE Flood of Noah itself, and that I figure Lake Missoula was one of the bodies of water left standing after the Flood.

There is a slight problem with this scenario: The date of the flood which caused the channeled scablands is three times older than the date ascribed to the global flood.

Does not compute....


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:27 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 694 of 1304 (732119)
07-03-2014 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:27 PM


Re: Something else for you to deny
Yes, Old Earth dating does NOT compute. Once the Flood is recognized it will have to be rethought.

So, no rebuttal to the age of the channeled scablands vs. the age of the purported flood?

Typical. What you can't rationalize or obfuscate, you ignore.

But facts are stubborn little things. They don't go away because we wish them to, or because we ignore them.

In science, one good fact is enough to cause the rethinking of an otherwise elegant theory. How many facts does it take to cause the rethinking of a belief?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 756 of 1304 (732256)
07-05-2014 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 755 by edge
07-05-2014 12:28 PM


Re: Faith still has presented no evidence
One thing I have learned from all of these, largely fruitless discussions, is that Faith, and YECs in general, have no idea what we mean by 'evidence'. Their feelings, myths and wishes are all evidence as far as they are concerned. I don't know if this is a failing of the educational system that we have, or if it is an effect of religious indoctrination, or both.

They are so convinced of the TRVTH of their beliefs that they just know the evidence supports those beliefs.

So, anything we bring up as "evidence" that goes against those beliefs just has to be wrong or "misinterpreted." They don't even need to read what we post--its just wrong, so why bother.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by edge, posted 07-05-2014 12:28 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by edge, posted 07-05-2014 12:45 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 802 of 1304 (732338)
07-06-2014 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Faith
07-06-2014 4:37 PM


Imaginary evidence
The evidence is that the timing fits the Flood timing and continental drift fits the Flood timing

Evidence?

You have none. All you have is belief and you're just making up whatever feels good to fit within that belief.

Evidence is the last thing you either need or want.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 4:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 877 of 1304 (732564)
07-08-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Faith
07-08-2014 2:07 PM


Re: please demystify "depositional environment"
Data indicate that the environment in central Saskatchewan was more oxygen- restricted. From base to top, the depositional environment of the Neely Member changed from relatively deep, offshore settings, through higher energy, shallower water conditions represented by domical stromatoporoids, to intertidal and supratidal conditions. The Hubbard Evaporite Member was deposited in salt pan to saline mudflat environment, and the overlying First Red Bed formed in environments that ranged from saline mudflat, dry mudflat to distal floodplain. " C. Gu, Ph.D. thesis, 1998; DISS. ABSTR. INT., SECT. B v.59, no.6, p.2633-B, Dec. 1998.

There isn't a single fact about these Members in this entire paragraph. Where are the facts, in other words the evidence, that justifies the recurrent phrase "was deposited in" this that or the other "environment." Do you get the question or is this kind of mystifying jargon so standard that you can't see the facts for the interpretations that have swallowed them up?

You have cited the abstract of a Ph.D. dissertation.

That is not where data normally appears. Perhaps if you read the dissertation you would find the data there, you think? Dissertations are readily available sometimes free but otherwise for a small price. Maybe you should do some real research for a change?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Faith, posted 07-08-2014 2:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by Faith, posted 07-08-2014 2:27 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 886 of 1304 (732611)
07-09-2014 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Faith
07-09-2014 12:22 AM


Re: please demystify "depositional environment"
The problem is when you have a stack of strata and you claim a different depositional environment for each layer based on its contents, as if the environment had changed from one level to the next. THAT's what makes no sense. I do expect a rational person simply to see why it doesn't make sense, and beyond that I don't know how to prove that it doesn't, so since you won't see why it doesn't there is probably nowhere to go with this from here.

The problem is you are trying to cram everything into a few hundred years, or less, when it actually took a few millions to many millions of years.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Faith, posted 07-09-2014 12:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 888 by Faith, posted 07-09-2014 12:34 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 983 of 1304 (732876)
07-11-2014 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 981 by edge
07-11-2014 8:39 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
The principle of superposition is pretty well established.

I have a bumpersticker on the truck, "Archaeologists assume superposition."

We get some weird looks, and an occasional question as to, "What's that mean?"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by edge, posted 07-11-2014 8:39 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 988 by edge, posted 07-11-2014 10:31 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 990 of 1304 (732883)
07-12-2014 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 988 by edge
07-11-2014 10:31 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
I have a bumpersticker on the truck, "Archaeologists assume superposition."

Sometimes, I just have to pull rank and say that scientists are special.


I also have a coffee mug that says, "My life is in ruins."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by edge, posted 07-11-2014 10:31 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1011 of 1304 (732906)
07-12-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 993 by Faith
07-12-2014 2:01 AM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
Although you think you have evidence for your speculations about the past, you don't have any more than a creationist does.

Absolutely false.

Scientists rely on evidence to lead to their theories. Creationists typically rely on belief to cherry-pick any facts that they can twist, misrepresent, or obfuscate enough to support that belief while ignoring everything that contradicts that belief.

You have sedimentation rates for TODAY, and you merely ASSUME they apply to the past. That's not evidence, that's just the usual speculation that is necessary in all attempts to reconstruct the prehistoric past.

That sedimentation rates for today are not applicable to the past is wishful thinking on the part of creationists--wishful thinking without a shred of evidence to support it.

Wishful thinking without a shred of evidence is the typical creationist method used to shore up their beliefs. "But what if cows could fly?" makes about as much sense as the rationalizations you come up with.

And you have the brass to call what you are doing science? What a joke!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1097 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1042 of 1304 (732946)
07-12-2014 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Faith
07-12-2014 3:37 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Well, show me where it is depositing on top of the Holocene somewhere.

Indian sites which we test contain accumulated soil which has been deposited there.

And it is not uncommon to excavate a site, reach a sterile layer, and upon excavating through that layer to encounter another cultural layer beneath it.

This is exactly what you are trying to tell us does not happen.

Why do you feel it is productive to try to deny things that are seen by everyone else?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 4:55 PM Coyote has responded

  
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