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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Continuation of Flood Discussion | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
The fact that there is chunky erosional material there at all is the point But nowhere near enough to support your fantasy.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Foregone only because the evidence is irrefutable and massive.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
This will never happen if the only weapon in your arsenal is ignorance. Your ideas are unsupported by any evidence and many of them violate known physical laws. It's crazy to expect people to be convinced by ideas that make no sense. QFT. Nailed it.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
My ideas violate no physical laws For the umpteenth time One year of sedimentary deposition by water cannot produce the observed geology; it violates physical laws that large pebbles settle first, followed by smaller pieces until you get to clay. Sorting fossils in water and depositing them in the order we see violates physical laws, in that similar sized organisms in similar environments under similar conditions (e.g ichthyosaurs and dolphins, but there are lots of others.) should often be deposited together... but they never are. Sorting the isotopes in the geological column in the order we see them violates physical laws because chemical and mechanical forces have little to no impact on nuclear properties. And there's lots more I could list.
but many of yours have over the last year or so Standard unsupported Faith assertion. Despite many challenges you have never been able to identify a single violation of any physical law in any mainstream science. You cry "violation!" over and over again but that cry is all you have.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Water was water.
Gravity was gravity. Mass was mass. Your fludde claims require all that to be false. You're peddling magic.
"Sorting fossils in water' is not something I've ever said. You can't even remember what you've said, much less what mainstream science has produced.
Message 322:
All the same big event, huh? Would you care to speculate as to why no crab fossil has ever been found in the same rock as a trilobite fossil? No perch in the same rock as a eurypterid? No dimetrodons with dinosaurs? Never, in any of those cases? Something to do with the principles of hydraulic sorting. PaulK replies:
And Faith just demonstrates why my advice was good. No Faith, as others have pointed out, hydraulic sorting is not a viable explanation. Even at the simplest level, the fossils associated with each era have a huge range of shapes and sizes, quite the opposite if what we'd expect if hydraulic sorting were the issue. And Message 343 you reply:
Hydraulic sortibng plus original location of the original creature, plus level of the currents in the ocean that carried them etc etc etc. And that's just a small sample. Or do you not realize the "hydraulic sorting" in a fludde refers to sorting in water? We see lots of instances of similar sized and similarly shaped organisms, eating similar diets with similar behavior patterns in similar environments (including level in the ocean) but never ever ever ever found anywhere near together in the geological column. Just can't happen with the laws of how mass, water, and gravity work. No matter how much water. Your claims are disproved by fundamental physical laws. You are preaching magic.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Google Street View now covers the Grand Canyon. Talk about opportunities for more Faith fantasies!
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Google maps shows Monument Valley from above. Duh.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
This being the case how do we get different depositional environments? One location will experience different environments as it rises and falls, travels around the globe, and external factors (such as overall sea level) change.
And if this model does apply to the Geological Column, how do we get the great separation in age from one sediment to another? Various ways.One common one is that layers A B C D E deposit in that order over a long time, then the environment changes from depositional to erosional (maybe the land raises like the Colorado Platequ), layers E D C erode away in that order, then the environment changes back to depositional and layers F G H deposit in that order. Big age separation between layers B F because of the missing C D E layers. You really need to learn to think in terms of millions of years, even though you don't believe it's real, to understand geology. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Yeah, but she's asking if someone has done the correlation between observed layers and reconstructions of position and state derived from other observations. I doubt the latter class exists in sufficient detail, but if I'm wrong I bet someone's done it.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
You know what Faith's missing? She can't wrap her head around the concept of millions of years. Not even as a hypothetical.
The mainstream view is that the sedimentation that is going on today is typical of what's been going on for million of years. Faith's view is that the sedimentation today is much slower than her fantasy fludde. Well in her paradigm that's correct... but her paradigm is completely divorce from reality. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
All sedimentation anywhere on Earth is on top of the geologic column and immediately forms an infinitesimal portion of that column and the geologic time scale. Time flows and the column and time scale grow with each second.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Wow.
Percy's pointed out your error (but I bet you won't understand), so I'll give it a try. The geologic column consists of all remaining deposited sediments and igneous and metamorphic rocks. The geologic time scale is the time over which the geologic column was built.
There is no requirement that further deposition in the geologic column be on top of flat or even roughly flat underlying rock. None whatsoever.
Of course all unconformities are examples (I think) in spite of your fantasy of layers rolling around underground and being transported whole and unmarked by a magical water-like-but-doesn't-act-like-water fludde. Edited by JonF, : No reason given. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Please identify that formation, the folded part and the upper part. Thanks.
I can't find that particular one right now but they're easy to find if you look.
The Monterey Formation of California: Structural and Stratigraphic Development of Extensional Basins: A Case Study Offshore Deepwater Sarawak and Northwest Sabah, Malaysia:
Extensional Fault-Bend Folding and Synrift Deposition: An Example from the Central Sumatra Basin, Indonesia:
Mountain Beltway (with many more):
Photos of Unconformities:
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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The Geologic Column IS a stack of horizontal strata, that is what it IS
Absolutely not The geologic column is all the rocks found underneath the Earth or, when applied to a given location, all the rocks under that location. Sedimentary, metamorphic, igneous, flat, folded, faulted,... all the rocks. If you want to denote only the flat layers on under the Earth or under a given location, you may not redefine "geologic column" to mean that. I doubt there's a simple word for "only the flat layers on under the Earth or under a given location" because mostly nobody cares about that, but you don't get to redefine standard terms.
Merriam-Webster:
quote: Free Dictionary:
quote: Glossary of geologic terms:
quote: No mention of horizontality or flatness. None. The definition of the geologic column does not include flatness or horizontality of layers. There is no definition anywhere in which "geologic column" requires flat or horizontal layers. You are 110% wrong. {ETA} Many drawings of the geologic column show flat interfaces for simplicity. These do not represent the actual flatness or lack thereof of the interface, or any folding within layers. Here's a diagram of a local geologic column (kurdistan) that is more (but not completely) representational of the actual geometry:
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 193 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Your own definitions include "strata" and "column." Yes. They do not include "flat" or "horizontal". {}ETA} Stratum (the singular of strata) is defined as "a layer or a series of layers of rock in the ground". Nothing about flat or horizontal.
What do you think a column is anyway The applicable definition is "any columnlike object, mass, or formation". SFW? It's not a stack of flat and horizontal layers.
The strata are originally-horizontal layers of sediments, a column is a stack of them Wrong. The column is a stack of possibly originally horizontal and flat sediments that may or may not be horizontal or flat anymore, plus metamorphic and igneous layers and dikes and the like. Not "a stack of horizontal strata" which is what you claimed it is.
I have no idea what your diagram represents. Sediments distorted in a river it looks like And God forbid you follow the link and find out, you just make stuff up. No, it's a cross-section of the formations in Kurdistan that are part of the geologic column, illustrating the fact that the column is much more complex (especially the contacts between layers) than in your confused and simplistic mind.
I've been supposing that first the sediments were laid down everywhere and then distorted. That is what I would expect of your example too That's true. And you've been supposing that "the Geo Column has stopped wherever it is no longer a horizontal stack of layers but is eroded, buckled and so on." That's false. My diagram and the pictures you ignored demonstrate that falsity. Let's see one again:
This is a cross section of an offshore area in Indonesia, looking for oil. It shoes three rift cycles in which the ocean floor cracked or subsided to form a valley, and then flat layers filled in all or most of that valley, and then the ocean floor cracked or subsided again (distorting the flat and horizontal layers). Exactly what you claim is impossible. That's all part of the geologic column, which consists of "the vertical sequence of strata of various ages found in an area or region. Also known as column." or "a columnar diagram that shows the rock formations of a locality or region and that is arranged to indicate their relations to the subdivisions of geologic time". Not just the currently flat and horizontal strata, as you would have it. Remember this?
They stacked up one on top of another very neatly and horizontally for some time -- LOTS of layers over a LONG time by OE reckoning -- then they all got buckled and broken and eroded in a block. Where are you going to put your Lego? It isn't going to "build on" the stack, or "continue" the stack. The stack is no longer the original stack. It's over and done with. The picture I posted just above (and the others you ignored) show deposition continuing and building on to the top of the geologic column in exactly the way you claim is impossible. Any deposition on top of any layer, no matter how folded and buckled and twisted and cracked that lower layer is, continues the endless building of the geologic column. Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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