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Author | Topic: Neither a theist nor an atheist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2107 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic I sha'n't quibble over what you want to call it, if I saw a fairy godmother turning a pumpkin into a coach I'd call it "magic", if you want to call it something else that's fair enough. Let's get back to what you mean by "reasonable".
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
think in academia we all agree that the temperature on Mars is exactly as it is here Just based on a belief that God definitely exists, however that belief is obtained, can locate you in quadrant II. So I'm not sure I understand your point. In which quadrant would you estimate that Faith belongs? In contrast, I take ringo's statement as meaning that no one can legitimately be in quadrants I or II. Does that possibility seem correct to you?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
And I make a distinction between professed belief and "real" belief, as you may recall from other threads.
And my point is that their belief alone, whether well supported or unfounded, is enough to disqualify them as agnostic.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'd go so far as to say there are people who think they're gnostic theists but I don't believe them.
Would you go so far as to say that there are no gnostic theists? Phat writes:
We can "see" what beliefs people profess and we can see how they "act out" their actual beliefs. There likely are people who profess similarly to you and people who act similarly to you. They are not necessarily the same people.
If they plausibly exist, how does their belief differ from mine?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I'd replace the cross in that diagram with a big gray square.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 802 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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I am an agnostic atheist because I do not profess to know for certain that god does not exist and I leave open the possibility of some god existing and therefor, i do not believe in any gods.
I see faith as being a Gnostic Theist because she is confident she knows god does exist and believes in it. There is no doubt in her mind, as far as I can tell, about that existence. It is not up to me, an outside agent, to determine what someone else actually knows, so I can only go off what they say.
Just based on a belief that God definitely exists, however that belief is obtained, can locate you in quadrant II. Gnosticism deals with knowledge, theism with belief. Here is a good article about it: Atheist vs. Agnostic In contrast, I take ringo's statement as meaning that no one can legitimately be in quadrants I or II. Does that possibility seem correct to you? I am not sure I really follow or necessarily agree with Ringo, but I don't quite know what he is saying to have an opinion. He seems to me to be saying that he knows what other people know or don't know and is making the distinction for them. If that is the case, I do not agree. These sorts of topics, imo, are on an individual level and ought to be left up to the individual to determine. Not that definitions are arbiters of usage, but the first definition of gnostic is:
quote: (one soon finds that this word is really muddied due to actual Gnosticism as a set of beliefs)Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 613 days) Posts: 3228 Joined:
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I myself am a follower of an alternate way. My mantra is Wisdom, Truth, and Fraternity. It can be shortened to WTF, so anytime you see those letter, you know they too are a follower of the alternate way.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I see faith as being a Gnostic Theist because she is confident she knows god does exist and believes in it. There is no doubt in her mind, as far as I can tell, about that existence. It is not up to me, an outside agent, to determine what someone else actually knows, so I can only go off what they say. That's pretty much my take on it too. I knew we could agree about something.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
hooah212002 writes:
I don't claim to know what other people know. I just don't believe they know what they think they know. I don't believe in theists in the same way I don't believe in gods.
I am not sure I really follow or necessarily agree with Ringo, but I don't quite know what he is saying to have an opinion. He seems to me to be saying that he knows what other people know or don't know and is making the distinction for them.
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Taq Member Posts: 9975 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
And, between absolutes, how is any "middle path" possible anyway? It's the same as being a little bit pregnant.
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granpa Member (Idle past 2342 days) Posts: 128 Joined: |
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no? Or are you asking agnostic?
and first of all you have to define God Edited by granpa, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
granpa writes:
No. Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no? Have I stopped taking heroin? No. Have I stopped ruling the universe? No.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I just don't believe they know what they think they know. That would make you either agnostic or atheist rather than them.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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