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Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
RAZD
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Message 4 of 740 (733610)
07-19-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
07-19-2014 9:04 AM


observed net erosion → deposition must occur somewhere
Sufficiently low lying regions are areas of net deposition of sediments. In all low lying regions of the world as sediments are deposited the geologic column grows. Since most low lying regions are submerged we cannot directly observe this process in our daily lives, but there are some exceptions.

Another way to look at this is that there are many areas where we can readily observe net erosion, lots and lots of erosion, particularly in the Grand Canyon area, Bryce Canyon area, etc.

That eroded material has to go somewhere, it doesn't evaporate, but it can be very fine particles.

Where every those particles come to rest and are buried by other particles, they then become deposition zones. adding to the local column.

The surface of the earth is in flux, changing. Where we live there is constantly very fine dust being deposited on our vehicles, where it is readily observed, and it is logical to assume that this occurs on all surfaces locally in a similar degree, that rain will wash most off high or sloped surfaces down to low flat surfaces (yards and lawns), and gradually this would accumulate ... so gradually that it is not noticed in normal day to day timescales.


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 19 of 740 (733697)
07-20-2014 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-19-2014 11:01 PM


Re: observed net erosion ¨ deposition must occur somewhere
Just wondering how often you find the dust that settles on your car is entirely sand or entirely fine clay particles or entirely carbonate, or foram ooze. ...

Curiously it doesn't matter what the materials are that are being deposited -- the critical point is that material is constantly being deposited and is building up in the geological period call "now" ...

... Do I need to explain? The sedimentary strata of the Geologic Column are made up of such different sediments, not mixtures.

No you don't need to explain, you need to learn: sometimes layers are all classified as one type of material; sand for instance covers a range of sizes and can be made up of different material of origin ("black sand" is finely ground volcanic rock), and it is defined by size more than material:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sand

quote:
1.a : a loose granular material that results from the disintegration of rocks, consists of particles smaller than gravel but coarser than silt, and is used in mortar, glass, abrasives, and foundry molds
  b : soil containing 85 percent or more of sand and a maximum of 10 percent of clay; broadly : sandy soil

bold added for emphasis

Note that gravel and silt can be the same materials but in different sizes.

In addition there are many sedimentary layers that consist of mixtures of rocks, gravel, sand, silt and clay -- typical material found after spring storms being deposited in lakes.

The sedimentary strata of the Geologic Column are made up of such different sediments, not mixtures.

In every area the layers in the local "column" (what you would find if you took a core sample) would consist of some soil layers (non-lithified), and different layers at different depths. The depths represent relative age (by the law of superposition - see Dr.A's topic).

You would also be able to take a similar core a hundred feet away and find some layers not in the original core and some layers missing that show up in the first core. Comparing the cores you would be able to relatively date where these discrepancies are in an overall composite column showing all the layers in the two columns in their relative age position.

As we can easily see, erosion can remove a layer in one location while leaving it intact in another, and deposition can add a later in one location while not affecting another.

Note that the geological periods were all defined by relative dating of layers in a composite column built up in this way from many sources long before radiometric dating arrived on the scene.

Volcanic ash covers a large area after an eruption, and this is a layer in the column that occurs at the time of the eruption and is usually referred to as 'tuff' in the column (as has been noted in Lake Suigetsu layers, which then date those eruptions). Lava flows would also be a layer formed on the surface at the time of eruption, and thus show up in the geological column at the time of the eruption.

We can date volcanic tuff in the mississippi river valley to show when the huge caldera in yellowstone park erupted, just as we can see occurred for Mt St Helens.

Enjoy.


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 121 of 740 (734057)
07-24-2014 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Taq
07-24-2014 2:14 PM


Human History v. Geologic History AND changes to the Geological Column/s
Let's call this "THE human history". With that idea in place, does this mean that at any spot on the globe that there are human artefacts from every single event on that list directly underfoot?

Not only that but we have a LOT of evidence of artifacts from history being buried by sediments (water borne and air borne) and by volcanic ash (Pompeii) ... and to claim that the local geological column in those areas did not grow is just delusional ignoring the facts\evidence.

In addition, any claim that THE Grand Overall Amalgam Geological Column did not also grow during this time is equally ludicrous.

Done. Finished. Q.E.D. etc ... end of argument.

Really this thread should have been very very very brief, because facts are not open to debate and if you don't accept facts then see def 3 below. Curiously if you had been deceived (def 1b) into a wrong impression somehow, that form of delusion (like ignorance) is curable by learning ...

Enjoy.

de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)

  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(1)
Message 416 of 740 (734510)
07-30-2014 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Faith
07-29-2014 7:20 AM


Blindness
Yes my model is very simple minded. That's a virtue in this case. But no, it's complicated because the geology itself is complicated. There's very little out there that shows the neat undisturbed accumulation of the strata as the Grand Canyon area does. To reconstruct the original neat undisturbed strata requires undoing the knots in it brought about mostly by faulting. Here's a cute one for example, not terribly hard to interpret but riddled with faults:

Indeed, and what it shows is that there were periods of sedimentation after some faults, covering them.

On the right side above the words "Palaeozoic basement" and below the words "Break-up unconformity" are four such faults. Above those faults lie "Late Jurassic shelf edge" sedimentary deposits followed by other sedimentary layers on top of those.

Real geology has a very very very simple explanation for this.

Enjoy


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RAZD
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(1)
Message 493 of 740 (734618)
07-31-2014 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Faith
07-30-2014 8:01 AM


ALL the evidence points to an old world without a global flood.
You can track those layers all the way across the formation to the left, RAZD, clearly showing they were all there before the faulting to the right occurred. There is something different about those on the right but they were nevertheless all already there. All those layers were there, and the salt layer was there. The only layer that wasn't already there, or might not have been judging only by the diagram, is the uppermost layer that says "Base tertiary."

Which fails to explain the faults at the left that do not go up through the upper layers, just as we would expect to happen if those upper layers had been laid down after the faulting on the left occurred.

Ash deposits buried by later sediments also show that volcanic activity occurred before all the sedimentary layers were made ... like the ones in Laetoli that have hominid footprints in them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetoli

quote:
Laetoli is a site in Tanzania, dated to the Plio-Pleistocene and famous for its hominin footprints, preserved in volcanic ash (Site G). The site of the Laetoli footprints is located 45 km south of Olduvai gorge. The location was excavated by archaeologist Mary Leakey in 1978. “The Laetoli Footprints” received significant recognition by the public, providing convincing evidence of bipedalism in Pliocene hominids based on analysis of the impressions.

Hominid footprints in volcanic ash, covered by later sedimentary deposits.

Everywhere you look, from shell deposits on Mt Everest to the oldest living trees and tree ring chronologies covering 12,000 years, to the varve layers in Lake Suigetsu and the Ice layers in Greenland and Antarctica to uranium halos, there is a total lack of evidence for a global flood and massive evidence of an old earth.

The explanation of ALL the evidence is simple: the world is very very very old and there .. was .. no .. global .. flood.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(2)
Message 512 of 740 (734672)
08-01-2014 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
07-31-2014 9:43 PM


children's stories don't explain geological formations ... or footprints in ash
... I could read the Bible to you where it is so plain and simple and says how the Flood happened ...

As plain and simple as a children's story, complete with mythological snakes that talk ...

Or I could read a geological textbook and pay particular attention to how the geological column grows and what types of deposits contribute to it and what kinds of erosion actions take away layers, how you can tell the difference between deposits made under water and deposits made on dry land.

It would not be plain and simple, but then life isn't plain and simple.

The difference is that I could look at that information and I could apply it to what you actually see in the world. I could test what it says with evidence and confirm that what that textbook says is validated in the objective empirical evidence that surrounds us.

And then there is the constant refrain that I provide no evidence for my assertions. But my assertions are just a way of saying "Look!" Just "look for yourself," the evidence is right there, on the cross sections etc. I point something out, but instead of looking you point something else out.

Curiously, I know I do look, and I know that others look, but they look at ALL the evidence, they look at all the explanations and the consilience of results from multitudes of different branches of science that ALL spell out objective empirical evidence of an old earth.

Hominid footprints in a volcanic ash deposit that was covered by later sedimentary deposits, growing the geological column over those footprints ... we KNOW the volcanic ash was deposited on dry land, we KNOW that the footprints match the foot structure of hominid ancestors to humans and we KNOW that the footprints match the age of the ash and the time of the hominids from other objective empirical evidence: it fits the overall picture.

The overall picture is more compelling, more validated by many different sources of evidence, from the gradually slowing spin rate of the planet to the cause of rainbows.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(2)
Message 519 of 740 (734724)
08-01-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Faith
07-31-2014 10:28 PM


Re: cross section shows all layers were in place except top one
There is only one layer that could be true of, and that's the layer at the top, the one labeled "base tertiary." ...

Now I also notice that this "base tertiary" layer ends before the right side of the diagram with what looks like several small layers that formed as if on a slope, and I am reminded of the Walther's Law for progression of layers relative to the edge of a water basin (sea or lake).

As Percy notes there is a significant delay in time between this layer and the one below, and the fissures that end at this boundary would indicate that it was not covered when those fissures were active.

... All the layers below that -- or let's say most because there are some that don't -- extend completely across from left to right. ...

So no, it is not "All the layers" rather it is some of the layers extend from one side to the other. Somehow I do not fine the argument that some of the evidence fits your belief to be a compelling argument in any way, especially when standard geology explains ALL the evidence.

But what I want you to look at and mull over are the fault lines that are the 2nd, 3rd, fourth, and fifth from the right end of the diagram ...

... those faults that do not extend above the "break-up unconformity" squiggly line ...

Curiously I see absolutely no difference in basic characteristics of the sedimentary layers over those cut-off faults and the similar layer identified as "Base tertiary" where it lies over the other cut-off faults (as noted by Percy): this is the same kind of interface that Percy identified, it shows a line of erosion that occurred after those faults were active and it was covered by sedimentation after those faults stopped being active.

We also have another time difference in this location\depth, between the "Palaeozoic basement" and the "Late Jurassic shelf edge" sedimentary layers ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleozoic

quote:
The Paleozoic (or Palaeozoic) Era (/ˌpæliɵˈzoʊɪk/ or /ˌpeɪliɵˈzoʊɪk/; from the Greek palaios (παλαιός, "old" and zoe (ζωή, "life", meaning "ancient life"[1]) is the earliest of three geologic eras of the Phanerozoic Eon, spanning from roughly 541 to 252.17 million years ago (ICS, 2004). ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic

quote:
The Jurassic (/dʒuːˈræsɪk/; from Jura Mountains of the Alps) is a geologic period and system that extends from 201.3± 0.6 Ma (million years ago) to 145± 4 Ma; from the end of the Triassic to the beginning of the Cretaceous. ...

So that is a gap of ~50 million years ... plenty of time for a lot of erosion, similar to what Percy noted for the upper unconformity.

More important for this discussion is that the "Alban" sedimentary layers were all deposited well after the tectonic activity that caused these particular faults had ceased. Put this together with the top layer being deposited after all the other faults except the one at the extreme right had ceased activity, and you have two different periods when there was sedimentary deposition after tectonic activity and occurring with a large gap in time between them.

An open-eyed open-minded look at this diagram show layers of sedimentary deposit followed by some tectonic activity followed by newer layers of sedimentary deposit, followed by some newer tectonic activity followed by even newer layers of sedimentary deposit, ... a cyclic pattern of deposition alternating with tectonic activity.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by JonF, posted 08-01-2014 4:22 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 528 of 740 (734783)
08-02-2014 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by Faith
08-02-2014 4:37 AM


cyclic faulting, some faults reactivate, some don't
Maybe I'll get back to your post later, but I just have to point out that the evidence I see on that diagram is that the Albian could NOT have been deposited after the tectonic activity because it too is affected by it. ...

Sedimentary deposition occurs, then tectonic activity occurs, then sedimentary deposition occurs, then tectonic activity occurs ... a cyclic pattern.

To use your own argument you don't know that the tectonic activity that produced the faults through the Albian could NOT have occurred before that layer was deposited, and then SOME of them were reactivated during later tectonic activity, while some were not.

From direct observation we KNOW that tectonic activity tends to reoccur along fault lines, ANS we KNOW there is a good reason for this - the rock structure is weaker due to previous faulting - so ANY fault line can have periodic activity continuing, even while sedimentary deposition occurs. Thus it is not possible to say that the fault lines crossing the Albian deposit only occurred after the deposition of all the layers.

But in any event the four faults at the left show activity before the Albian layer was deposited. That is clear from the diagram.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 605 of 740 (734917)
08-03-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by Coyote
08-03-2014 12:28 PM


one word describes it
cognitive dissonance ...


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 610 of 740 (734924)
08-03-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Faith
08-03-2014 4:22 PM


Re: one word describes it
and you are the poster-child, Faith, I am just amazed at the lengths you go to in order to twist things up in your fantasy .... I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and you realize that reality does not support your concepts.

Especially when there is so much evidence from so many different avenues of scientific knowledge which are consilient in so many details. It's like you are trying to halt an avalanche one snowflake at a time.

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 668 of 740 (735046)
08-05-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by Pressie
08-05-2014 8:42 AM


Faith writes:

The thing about faults is there's no way to tell for sure the timing of when they formed

After the deposits investigated. Faults don't form in mid-air... Not very difficult.

Except that I believe the question relates to faults that are active, dormant and then reactivated ... how would we know?

Actually there is a way to determine the relative ages involved, and that would be to look at the amount of displacement of the different layers at the fault boundaries.

Each layer of sediment would have internal layers that can be identified on both sides of the fault, and the displacement from one side to the other can be measured. If the bottom layer is displaced more than the layer over it, and that layer is displaced more than the layer over it, then we observe that this can only happen if the fault is reactivated after each subsequent layer.

Using an internal marker layer eliminates the effect that would result from erosion on the top of a layer.

This can also be done for horizontal faults if there were markers that could be used (say stream beds).

Enjoy.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 707 of 740 (735125)
08-06-2014 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 702 by herebedragons
08-05-2014 8:12 PM


Internal markers for measuring displacements
Each layer of sediment would have internal layers that can be identified on both sides of the fault, and the displacement from one side to the other can be measured. If the bottom layer is displaced more than the layer over it, and that layer is displaced more than the layer over it, then we observe that this can only happen if the fault is reactivated after each subsequent layer.

Excellent point RAZD. Layers are not as simple as "a thick slab of sandstone."

But these conditions are not visible from a computer screen or a generalized cross section.

Yet curiously, this is one of the things geologists do when they look at the actual rocks.

Similar displacements can be observed with horizontal displacements affecting things like roads and streams, recurring many times.

Enjoy

Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.


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RAZD
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Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(1)
Message 708 of 740 (735126)
08-06-2014 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 704 by Faith
08-06-2014 12:06 AM


magic transformation?
It STARTS with mud, what happens after that is how it becomes separated sediments. ...

So mud turns into separate layers of limestone, siltstone, sandstone and mudstone?

Fascinating.


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RAZD
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Message 728 of 740 (735267)
08-08-2014 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Percy
08-08-2014 8:56 AM


Re: Discussion Can Continue
Faith said she'll be responding at her blog. I visited her blog, and she repeats that she will be responding there:

http://evofantasy.blogspot.com/...ronic-vexation-of-evc.html

When she posts about this thread or the other thread she was participating in (SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.) I suggest we respond here at EvC, carefully quoting what she says first.

She will return -- the cognitive dissonance she experiences drives her back here to try to resolve the results of science vs her beliefs ... she's looking for answers that mesh both the science and the beliefs, and fights against the inevitable result that the beliefs must change to accommodate facts.

This is the tormented result Dawkins mentions in Ignorance is no crime

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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