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Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 127 of 740 (734078)
07-25-2014 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
07-25-2014 4:12 AM


Re: a partial review
I think I am understanding what your point is here. Let me see if I got this right.

In order to be part of the geological column:

  • It has to be part of the sequence between the Cambrian and the Tertiary, so anything from the Precambrian or before or from the Quaternary period doesn't count.
  • If it is not solid rock, it doesn't count.
  • If it doesn't have fossils in it, it doesn't count.
  • If it is not "thick and extensive," it doesn't count.

So, to be convinced the the geological column is still being added to, you need to be shown where a thick and extensive layer of rock, with fossils in it, is being laid down right now, but not in the Quaternary period, it has to be part of the Tertiary or before.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 07-25-2014 4:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 07-25-2014 6:07 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 174 of 740 (734171)
07-26-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
07-26-2014 3:23 AM


And here's a pretty one, this in the Bronx. Also has a sill that is quite thick and looks like a layer, though it's not a layer, it's an intrusion, a sill: in the upper left:


Not sure why you would say that the sill is not a layer. There it is, a rock pancake - right between two other layers. How is it not a layer? Sure it's not a sequential layer or a sedimentary layer, but why would it not be a layer? How about an intrusive layer?

Of course all these illustrate the principle that the layers were all laid down before any deformation occurred to them.

This illustration does not support that notion.

The blue, red, yellow and green areas are all metamorphic rock. It appears the blue and yellow layers were deformed together, but the red layer appears to have been laid down after deformation of the blue and yellow layers. The green layer was then shoved onto the red layer from the right hand side of the drawing. That all happened before the brown layer was put down since there is no distortion in the brown layer from the sliding of the green layer.

The Stockton Formation/Palisades must have been much more extensive than currently shown as the Palisades is a sill and should have formed completely within the Stockton Formation. It must have been eroded rather extensively. It was also laid down on an angular unconformity. It then appears there was more uplift and rifting of the blue area which caused the Stockton/Palisade to tilt. The whole area then was eroded off.

This does not appear to me to be an example of a whole stack of sediments being laid down in a rock pancake before any tectonic activity occurred. In fact, there is almost no sedimentary layers here at all, which is contrary to your whole premise that these "rock pancakes" exist in most every diagram you examine.

How do you interpret this diagram?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 3:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 07-26-2014 1:46 PM herebedragons has responded
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 3:57 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 4:46 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 175 of 740 (734172)
07-26-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
07-26-2014 3:23 AM


A question about this image also.

This one's kind of interesting, an area in England.

How come the Ordovician rocks (labeled #4) at the Shelve Plateau and Stipestones do not exist on the right hand side of the drawing? The Cambrian layer (#3) does and appears to support your premise that the whole block was laid down before tectonic activity, so why does the Ordovician layer not follow the pattern?

I know you posted these images to support your position that igneous rock is not a layer, but I wonder why that is even important? Igneous layers provide clues as to when events happened (even apart from absolute dating techniques) and what events happened.

But you ended your post with this:

Of course all these illustrate the principle that the layers were all laid down before any deformation occurred to them.

Interpret this drawing so as to support this principal. If the layers were all laid down at once before any deformation, why are the left and right side of the diagram so different?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 3:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 177 of 740 (734174)
07-26-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
07-26-2014 12:46 PM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
layers are layers.

Unless they are not layers in which case they would not be layers even though they might be layers but it doesn't necessarily mean they are layers they might not be layers so you can't always tell if its a layer or not a layer based on whether its a layer or not.

Wait, what was I saying??

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 07-26-2014 12:46 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 178 of 740 (734175)
07-26-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
07-26-2014 1:46 PM


I don't think Faith meant to say that an intrusive layer is not a layer.

Maybe not, but she is still saying that.

Faith writes:

Message 169 Also has a sill that is quite thick and looks like a layer, though it's not a layer, it's an intrusion, a sill:

Maybe she meant not a layer of the geological column, idk. (???)

ABE: I see we were talking about the same message and you corrected your link
-------------

Actually I meant to ask you this earlier in the thread, but I must not have pushed Submit, because it never posted.

I think what she really meant to say is what most of us already accept, that an intrusive layer is not part of the geological column,

I am not clear as to why it would not be a part of the geological column, an out-of-place part or out-of-sequence part, but it is a part of the sequence. It would be identified as being an intrusion, would it not? Or are we meaning the abstract, overall geological column, which there are really no typical type of layers associated with the time periods? I just really don't get what her whole argument regarding the geological column is about... other then the usual rock pancake being deformed as a whole stack thingy.

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 07-26-2014 1:46 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Percy, posted 07-27-2014 7:20 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 186 of 740 (734193)
07-26-2014 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
07-26-2014 5:20 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I guess what confused me is that you make it a point to argue that sills are not layers. But what is the point? I don't think anyone thinks that a sill represents a sequential layer, which is the whole point. So if you simply say that a particular unit is a sill, there is no other qualifier needed. We know (or can quickly find out) that a sill is an intrusion between two older rock units. But going on about it not being a layer just confuses the issue and I (and it seems others as well) begin thinking "why is she emphasizing that it is not a layer?"

So it seems to me perfectly acceptable to call it a sill. In the case of the Bronx diagram, I think it could be referred to as an intrusive layer, simply because of how extensive it is. But it would have been fine to just say it was a sill. Its throwing in all the "its not a layer" stuff that is confusing. IMO.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 5:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 5:52 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 188 of 740 (734196)
07-26-2014 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
07-26-2014 4:46 PM


Re: The Bronx Diagram Reconstructed
Yea, I guess it is kinda off topic.

I think you took some liberties with your drawing that are simply not justified. I see at least 4 major tectonic events in that drawing, maybe a 5th. It would be good to continue to discuss this and have a thread about reconstructing the history of the region based on that drawing. However, it is doubtful I will be able to participate much after today, at least for a while. But maybe someone else would be willing to have a go at it, so it would be a good idea to start a new thread on that Bronx cross section.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 4:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 6:12 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 190 of 740 (734199)
07-26-2014 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
07-26-2014 6:12 PM


Re: The Bronx Diagram Reconstructed
So you want me to lie? If I agreed I would definitely say so. I am not disagreeing just to be disagreeable. If I have time I will explain why I think you "took liberties" and why I see 4 or 5 tectonic events on the new thread. But I am not going to say I agree just to agree. Also I won't disagree just to disagree. What else can I do but be honest?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 6:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 6:32 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 213 of 740 (734241)
07-27-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Percy
07-27-2014 6:57 AM


Re: Layer / Sill
"Stratigraphic column" has two definitions... the other calls it a "structural column", meaning the rocks just as they are without regard to how or when they got there. I think this second definition of "stratigraphic column" is the definition that feels best to HBD and myself.

Statigraphic column or sequence works for me. I guess it does make sense that geological column should refer to the relation of the sequence to the time scale. Just a subtle difference.

That words are just labels means you can't use definitions to infer how the world really works,

I have always hated arguments about definitions but couldn't really put my finger on exactly why. I think you nailed it! I think it has a lot to do with why these discussions get so confusing sometimes.

as if geologic columns could only be constructed during global floods.

I too got the impression that she was trying to suggest this by definition.

But what we observe happening in all low lying regions around the world today (mostly sea floor) is the creation of a time ordered sequence of sedimentary and igneous layers, the very definition of a geologic column.

In her defense, I think that what we observe happening today DOES look strangely different than what we see in the rock record. But to me it highlights the fact that it takes lots of time (as well as specific circumstances) to convert these unconsolidated sediments into recognizable rock units. We just don't see it happening year by year as it would have had to happen in a global flood. If that were the case, we would have rock units under the Mississippi Delta that were only a couple hundred years old or so and new ones forming all the time.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Percy, posted 07-27-2014 6:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by edge, posted 07-27-2014 12:46 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 4:54 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 226 of 740 (734265)
07-27-2014 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
07-26-2014 10:17 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I'm picturing a layer of igneous rock BETWEEN layers of sedimentary rock as what I've never seen unless it's a sill, because as usual I'm thinking of a column, or stack, of layers. Does such a thing exist or are all these other kinds of examples all there is?

I have a couple of examples of volcanic layers between layers of sediment. But before I show the examples, I just want to clarify a couple of terms.

Basalt - common extrusive igneous (volcanic) rock formed from the rapid cooling of basaltic lava exposed at or very near the surface.

Extrusive - the mode of igneous volcanic rock formation in which hot magma from inside the Earth flows out (extrudes) onto the surface as lava or explodes violently into the atmosphere to fall back as pyroclastics or tuff.

Tuff - a type of rock consisting of consolidated volcanic ash ejected from vents during a volcanic eruption.

Volcanic Ash - consists of fragments of pulverized rock, minerals and volcanic glass, created during volcanic eruptions, less than 2 mm (0.079 inches) in diameter

* definitions are from the Wikipedia articles of the same name

So where you see "basalt", "tuff" or "volcanic ash" on these stratigraphic columns, it means that it is volcanic material that was deposited on top of a sedimentary layer and subsequentially covered with more sediment.

This one (below) is kinda hard to see but there is a basalt layer at 60 and volcanic ash layers at 55 and 79

(above) 3.5 km of lava!! about 6 km at Vancouver Is. !!!!!!!! But they are all bound by limestone top and bottom.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 4:31 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 227 of 740 (734266)
07-27-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by edge
07-27-2014 4:19 PM


Ash flows are quite dangerous and kill a lot of people because they can outrun a vehicle.

And can be extremley HOT! Up to 1000oC!!! and can move at a couple hundred miles an hour.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by edge, posted 07-27-2014 4:19 PM edge has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 235 of 740 (734274)
07-27-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
07-27-2014 3:38 PM


Re: Blackrock Escarpment is all volcanic
I can't figure out why it can't be a sill. Would you please explain that again. Thanks.

I am not sure edge answered the question you seem to be asking here. How do we know it was an extrusive layer (formed on the surface) rather than an intrusive layer (formed under the surface between two previous layers)? I think that was your question right?

Well, I found this page that presents a review guide for a geology course that presents a problem that helps provide understanding into this idea.

(You could use it to test yourself on some of these concepts, but the answers are already filled in, so its more of a review than a test, but anyway...)

In the diagram below which shows a portion of the Earth's crust, what is the relative age of the igneous rock?

Key:

- Limestone


- Shale

- Igneous rock formation

- Contact metamorphosis

A. It is older than the limestone but younger than the shale.
B. It is younger than the limestone but older than the shale.
C. It is older than both the limestone and the shale.
D. It is younger than both the limestone and the shale.

---------------------------

Answer:

The diagram shows an igneous intrusion. This occurs when molten rock material passes through a rock layer. When the molten material solidifies, a rock layer is left behind. In the diagram, the molten igneous material passed through the limestone layer. Wherever the molten igneous material came in contact with the limestone layer, metamorphism occurred. There is no contact metamorphism between the igneous layer and the overlying shale. This indicates that the shale formed on top of the igneous layer after it had solidified.

B is the correct answer.

HBB


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 3:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 5:04 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 240 of 740 (734281)
07-27-2014 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
07-27-2014 4:31 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
Basalt is defined as an extrusive volcanic rock. Look it up for yourself.

An intrusive rock that has the same chemical composition as basalt is called Gabbro.

quote:
Gabbro

A dark, medium- to coarse-grained intrusive igneous rock composed of calcium plagioclase, pyroxene, and possibly olivine, but no quartz. It is the intrusive equivalent of basalt and the deep intrusive equivalent of diabase.


Source

Its not just the chemical make up that determines what type of volcanic rock it is, it is also grain size. Intrusive lava cools slower so can form larger crystals. Extrusive rocks cool more rapidly and don't have time to form large crystals, so are more fine grained.

When a rock is referred to as Basalt, it can be assumed to be extrusive, unless there are reasons to think otherwise. Are there reasons why you think those examples are intrusions?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 4:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Percy, posted 07-27-2014 5:22 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 243 of 740 (734285)
07-27-2014 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
07-27-2014 5:04 PM


Re: Blackrock Escarpment is all volcanic
Oh come on!

The way to tell the difference between a sill and a subaerial flow is by contact metamorphosis surfaces. In the problem presented, is there contact metamorphosis in the contact between the lava flow and the shale above it? NO. So the shale was not there when the lava extruded and it was NOT an intrusion into the shale layer.

If you want to know if the Cardenas lava is intrusive or extrusive, look at the contact metamorphosis between it and the layer that overlies it.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 5:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 148 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 246 of 740 (734289)
07-27-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Percy
07-27-2014 5:13 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I don't know why HBD said such a thing.

I guess its just that to someone who doesn't study these things a lot, it can be hard to see the kind of processes that will someday, maybe, become rock. Its like looking at a still of a movie and trying to figure out the plot. I too see the same processes at work today that formed the features of the past. However, I can see how someone like Faith would see it as strangely different. It does take some research to understand it.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Percy, posted 07-27-2014 5:13 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by edge, posted 07-27-2014 5:36 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
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