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Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 453 of 740 (734557)
07-30-2014 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Taq
07-30-2014 4:20 PM


Re: Flood timing versus OE Time Scale timing
What type of observations would falsify a recent global flood?
I know the answer to that one!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Taq, posted 07-30-2014 4:20 PM Taq has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 459 of 740 (734567)
07-30-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
07-30-2014 5:28 PM


Re: Flood debunkery revisited
Sigh. You do NOT have evidence, you have plausibilities, ...
Which would be better than implausibilities.
... which is amply shown already in this discussion alone as you so inadequately envision what you think would have happened.
That's weird logic. Why would Percy think of anything that would happen during the fludde? Isn't that your job, to describe such events?
It's all imagination and yours is woefully out of scale.
How do you know that? What scale are you working with?
You are living in neverneverland if you think the layers being built today are even remotely similar in size to the Coconino, the Redwall, the Dover Cliffs, the tepui etc.
Actually, I'm betting that some are larger. Just look at the continental shelf of North America. What do you think will happen according to Walther's Law when sea level rises? What do you think the Sahara Desert will look like in the geological record? And what about the Great Barrier Reef? And you never did address the late Triassic limestone formations that run from Alaska to Peru, all deposited after major volcanic events.
I know... details, details...
And you keep comparing the volume of water to a local flood when a worldwide Flood begun with over a month of heavy rain would be made up of millions of such little floods all running together all at one time.
But you never explain where that water came from or where it went. You never explain how limestone would be deposited during such a flood event. You never explain how evaporites were deposited in the middle of a global flood, or how dinosaurs flourished during the flood.
Put some dirt in a square glass dish, add water to a good depth, stir until it's all mixed together, let it settle. Are there any places it didn't settle? Did the exact same sediments settle where they were originally?
You mean you are comparing a global flood with a glass of water??

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 Message 455 by Faith, posted 07-30-2014 5:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 462 of 740 (734573)
07-30-2014 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
07-30-2014 8:57 PM


Re: The interlayered depositions, Alaska etc
I have supposed that in their practical work Geologists don't really have a use for the Old Earth numbers of years anyway, but only for the relative dates between various formations.
Not with intrusive rocks and not where there are no relative age relationships. I have given you real-life examples.
If the mapping is good enough and you have coordinated relative dates, absolute ages may not be necessary. In fact with just sedimentary rocks we often don't have dates anyway.
On the other hand, as you go back into the Precambrian absolute ages become more important.

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 Message 460 by Faith, posted 07-30-2014 8:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(3)
Message 463 of 740 (734575)
07-30-2014 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
07-30-2014 8:57 PM


Re: The interlayered depositions, Alaska etc
The way the time periods are worked out I have no doubt is "scientific" the way all historical science is "scientific," it can't be tested but I don't doubt that it was scientifically determined as far as that is possible with the untestable past.
Actually, it was tested by radiometric dating, and guess what...
The (relatively) older rocks had older absolute dates.
The structure of DNA is replicable, testable, as are the other scientific theories of the true or hard sciences, the age of the earth IS NOT.
Except when they are. Radiometric dates can be tested a couple of easy ways. One is by repeated testing. The other is testing by other methods.
I suppose that, to you, concordance of dates is just a coincidence...
ALL the layers are consistent with Flood deposits with very few exceptions.
You mean like evaporite deposits, dinosaur tracks, fossil forests, subaerial volcanism, eolian sands? Stuff like that?
The fact that the layers exist at all as they do is GLARING evidence for the Flood, as is the staggering numbers of fossils.
Yes, old ages at work producing many fossils over many great ages. And in a well-defined order.
If this is so glaringly obvious, why not explain some of the features that I have just mentioned.
At present, the only thing that is glaring is the fact that you cannot address these issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Faith, posted 07-30-2014 8:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 1:38 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 472 of 740 (734588)
07-31-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by Faith
07-31-2014 1:38 AM


Re: The interlayered depositions, Alaska etc
If science contradicts God, so much for science.
Heh, heh...
What's strange to me is how God usually manages to do whatever fundamentalists want him to do.
Where does God say that the earth is 6ky old, for instance?
That means radiometric dating can't be accepted as true. Besides, tadiometric dating can't be verified any more than any other guess about the past can be.
Other than the fact that those guesses are supported by evidence, such as concordant radiometric dates.
You have no way of knowing if those dates are really accurate.
Then you explain the concordance of dating by different methods. You explain why radiometric dates confirm the relative order of geological events.
There could be a systematic error that can't be detected.
Could be. So, what is it?
You'd never know it because you can't go back into the past to see when the rocks formed.
Can you?
I've given my best guesses as to how the tracks showed up during the Flood.
You mean that you are just guessing?
Don't know how to account for the Aeolian sand but I'm sure there's a good explanation etc.
Well, track it down for us. Support your statements.
Fossil forests were most likely formed at the end or after the Flood by all the volcanism at that time.
You mean the forests of Carboniferous age? The ones with completely different plant life?
Evaporite deposits leached out of the rocks etc.
This is an example of how YECs take an unrelated factoid and turn it into a theory. Yes, salts are leached from the rocks. But then they end up in the oceans and lakes. Those bodies of water evaporate. Into the atmosphere.
And your answer is that "the salts are leached out of the rock". Please address the deposition, not the source.
The thing about fossils is that the conditions to produce them are rare, ...
For terrestrial fossils, yes. However, marine fossils, particularly microfossils, are not that uncommon.
But, once again, you avoid the details. Why is there a such a rigid order of fossil sorting in the fossil record?
... and most of the descriptions of how the strata formed don't suggest anything like those conditions, ...
How is that? Why do we have fossils forming today?
... but the Flood, in depositing all those wet sediments full of dead creatures, certainly did provide the conditions for fossilization of such an enormous collection of them: rapid burial under great pressure of the weight of the stack of strata above.
Please explain why this is not possible in mainstream geology.
There are too many misconceptions here. What is 'rapid burial'? Why do we need 'great pressure'? Why are such conditions 'rare'? Again you take a skeleton of irrelevant and misconstrued factoids and cover them with a tissue of disjointed YEC logic and come up with a Yexplanation that defies the evidence. Why are there no flowering plants or mammals in the Cambrian System?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 1:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 489 of 740 (734612)
07-31-2014 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
07-31-2014 1:17 PM


Re: back to interpretive versus observational science
Really, this idea that rocks tilting underground is absurd is what's absurd. You should look at all the cross sections I've been looking at. Tectonic forces move the rocks in relation to each other UNDERGROUND in an amazing variety of ways, even very long distances, as attested by the blizzard of fault lines you find on some cross sections.
Please provide documentation. What cross-section shows this?
They are tilted against each other in all sorts of directions, to such an extent in fact that the idea that an angular unconformity is something special really gets called into question.
Why is that?
Because, in some contortionist logic, it fits the Faith model.
Seems to me it's easily enough explained as just one of the many ways rocks get moved around in relation to each other.
If it is easily explained, please do so.
And this question about where all the erosion would have gone has to be asked about a lot of those faults where it looks like a great deal of rock had to have been abraded away to get into the positions they are found in.
This is bizarre. In on instance, you claim we don't have a source for all of the sediments found in the geological reocrd, and in practically the next post, you claim that we don't have a place to deposit all of that sediment.
They may not be quite as sharply tilted as an angular unconformity is but they are certainly tilted with respect to one another and whole chunks of strata have to be missing due to the movement alone.
And erosion explains that.

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 Message 482 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 1:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 490 of 740 (734614)
07-31-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
07-31-2014 2:33 PM


Re: Cardenas
But I don't think it's missing, I think the evidence is glaringly obvious wherever you look around this planet.
Your say-so is not evidence.
I think science thinks it's missing because science is operating under a delusional theory that colors everything so they can't see the truth about the rocks they are looking at.
All you need is evidence. Right now, you've got nothing.

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 Message 486 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 2:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 491 of 740 (734615)
07-31-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
07-31-2014 2:35 PM


Re: Good for evil and evil for good, black for white and white for black, bitter fr swt..
You guys are good at assertions about such things, with a TOTAL absence of the evidence you think you are so enamored of.
But we do provide evidence such as radiometric dating ifnormation. On the other hand, all we have from you is personal credence. "It just looks that way"...

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 Message 487 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 2:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 506 of 740 (734650)
08-01-2014 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
07-31-2014 9:43 PM


Re: whatever
And then there is the constant refrain that I provide no evidence for my assertions. But my assertions are just a way of saying "Look!" Just "look for yourself," the evidence is right there, on the cross sections etc. I point something out, but instead of looking you point something else out.
Just for the record, I"m stating that, "Just look!" is not evidence.
Furthermore, wrong. We do look at what you are saying and it never changes. It's all nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 07-31-2014 9:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 08-01-2014 6:59 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 515 of 740 (734682)
08-01-2014 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Faith
08-01-2014 6:59 AM


Re: whatever
For angular unconformities you don't have any evidence either for how they formed, it's all theory or interpretation, and pretty wild fantastic stuff too.
This is just one more bizarre statement from you. You do realize, don't you, that we can see an angular unconformity forming today? We have a pretty good idea how they form and what they look like in the geological record.
Your statement is very much like saying we don't actually know how tracks were made in the mud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 08-01-2014 6:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2014 10:56 AM edge has not replied
 Message 527 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 4:52 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 516 of 740 (734684)
08-01-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Percy
08-01-2014 9:07 AM


Re: cross section shows all layers were in place except top one
On the right side of the diagram are four faults that whose vertical extent also stops several kilometers of sedimentary layers short of the seafloor.
All these faults that do not extend to the top layers are strong evidence that the layers above were deposited after the faults occurred.
In fact, there is a whole family of faults that controlled the boundaries of an evaporite basin. Those faults had to be there to create a closed basin in which salt could be deposited.
The diagram also shows folding in the Paleozoic basement that does not extend into the overlying Mesozoic and Tertiray rocks; so they were deformed before the Mesozoic.
The jagged lines are erosional surfaces, i.e. unconformities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Percy, posted 08-01-2014 9:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 521 of 740 (734730)
08-01-2014 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by RAZD
08-01-2014 3:32 PM


Re: cross section shows all layers were in place except top one
An open-eyed open-minded look at this diagram show layers of sedimentary deposit followed by some tectonic activity followed by newer layers of sedimentary deposit, followed by some newer tectonic activity followed by even newer layers of sedimentary deposit, ... a cyclic pattern of deposition alternating with tectonic activity.
This is the only really viable explanation.
One thing to keep in mind, and it used to always boggle my mind, is that a 50 million year gap does not mean that there was erosion for that length of time, only that the rock record for that period is missing.
Good analysis. Should make sense to lay people.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 529 of 740 (734785)
08-02-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Faith
08-02-2014 4:52 AM


Re: whatever
Show us a picture of an angular unconformity forming today.
I know this will be difficult for you because it depicts a process that is only in progress and not complete.
However, my favorite example would be the Valley and Ridge Province in Pennsylvania.
Would you agree that these rocks are folded?
Woudl you agree that they are also presently being eroded?
Would you not agree that if this landscape were inundated by the sea that it would begin to received sediments that would eventually bury the shown topography?
Would that not create an angular unconformity?
We live on an unconformity. It may be one of the largest in geological history. In some places the rocks at the surface are folded and when they are reburied, it will present an angular unconformity.
Here is a close-up of an angular unconformity in the process of forming. In this case a soil has developed on top of the folded rocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 4:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 1:25 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 530 of 740 (734786)
08-02-2014 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by Faith
08-02-2014 4:37 AM


Re: other evidence the strata were all in place before the faulting
Maybe I'll get back to your post later, but I just have to point out that the evidence I see on that diagram is that the Albian could NOT have been deposited after the tectonic activity because it too is affected by it.
But not by all of the tectonism. The deeper rocks are more affected and the uppermost rocks are least affected. In fact, the data show that some of the faults do not even project upward into the Albian rocks on the right side of the diagram.
There is no other viable interpretation than that some deformation has been occurring at the location throughout geological time.
And really, the Base tertiary should show some signs of having originally had a horizontal surface as well if it was deposited after all the others were subjected to the faulting.
You do realize that you just contradicted your whole premise here? So the Tertiary was not affected by many of the faults? How do you explain this?
And along this same line of thinking, to Percy in particular, anywhere in the stack you claim that deposition occurred after the faulting you should be able to show that it deposited horizontally there too.
Why this qualification? It is pretty clear that the younger rocks are nowhere nearly as deformed as the Paleozoic, and it's pretty clear that the deformation decreases upward. Horizontality was probably the case, but that's irrelevant right now.
But although the strata get shifted a lot by the faults a basic parallel pattern between them is maintained for at least the upper half of the whole area.
Exactly. The shallower rocks are less deformed. As we have been saying all along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 4:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 12:52 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1728 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 532 of 740 (734788)
08-02-2014 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Faith
08-02-2014 3:43 AM


Re: Order of events as shown on cross sections
This is all interpretive stuff. You have no more support than I do for your interpretation.
Yes, well-supported interpretations. Do you have a problem with that? And just where is your supporting evidence?
For instance, I have just given you evidence that angular unconformities exist in the present and that we have a pretty good idea how they form, by direct observation.
Now, please provide us with evidence for your explanation of angular unconformities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Faith, posted 08-02-2014 3:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
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