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Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1484 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 16 of 113 (733897)
07-22-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coragyps
07-21-2014 9:14 AM


The safety man had told me a few weeks before about how he was a Responsible Gun Owner......
Consider the number of times you have people say that they own guns but are not responsible gun owners ... because people that don't know they are irresponsible are unable to determine that they are not responsible.
How many drunks think they are safe drivers?
It's always someone else eh?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 17 of 113 (734084)
07-25-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
07-20-2014 4:54 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
When a society openly promotes killing others as an acceptable means of solving problems, there should be no one surprised to find ordinary people occasionally killing others to solve their problems.
Violence really does beget violence. On top of this, executions receive little public attention so that citizens are ever aware of, and even comforted by, the death brought by their society's laws without ever having to face the horror of the thing itself.
State-sanctioned killing is not the cause of murder, but it makes it an acceptable choice to some of those whose minds have already gone there. As a detterant it fails.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 07-20-2014 4:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 11:11 AM Jon has replied
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2014 11:32 PM Jon has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 113 (734085)
07-25-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
07-25-2014 10:57 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
On top of this, executions receive little public attention so that citizens are ever aware of, and even comforted by, the death brought by their society's laws without ever having to face the horror of the thing itself.
That and there's only like 40 - 50 executions each year so its not even really a prevalent thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 07-25-2014 10:57 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ramoss, posted 07-25-2014 6:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 07-26-2014 6:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 691 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 19 of 113 (734102)
07-25-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2014 11:11 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
And, I will note, the overwheming number of those are in Texas.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Coragyps, posted 07-25-2014 6:36 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 814 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 20 of 113 (734103)
07-25-2014 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ramoss
07-25-2014 6:29 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Well, we gotta be #1 in something!

This message is a reply to:
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mram10
Member (Idle past 3582 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 21 of 113 (734155)
07-26-2014 10:53 AM


From a criminal's point of view:
You want to make more laws to take guns away from those that actually care about laws, thus I am stronger.
I can take a life without having to give mine in return. Meanwhile, I will have food, shelter, education, drugs and other criminals to learn from until I get out.
How many criminals are second offenders? How many commit numerous other crimes against their fellow man? You would protect their lives, while they terrorize others?
For those with the "sanctity of life" argument, are you also Pro- Life?

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 07-26-2014 11:45 AM mram10 has replied
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2014 10:41 PM mram10 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 22 of 113 (734163)
07-26-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by mram10
07-26-2014 10:53 AM


mram10 writes:
How many criminals are second offenders?
I think a more pertinent question would be: How many murderers are second offenders? A guy who commits forty burglaries isn't really relevant to this discussion.
mram10 writes:
For those with the "sanctity of life" argument, are you also Pro- Life?
Yup. Also pro-choice (pro-minding-my-own-business).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mram10
Member (Idle past 3582 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 23 of 113 (734197)
07-26-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
07-26-2014 11:45 AM


Thus, removing a criminal with 40 crimes under his/her belt would better society 40 fold. You obviously have no idea how to deal with a threat. I don't care if that is how you choose to deal with someone threatening you. In fact, I would hope the criminals seek out people like you. It is a win-win. The criminal gets away without being harmed, and you don't have to worry about their welfare
As for abortion, funny how you consider killing humans non of your business. I assume you support Planned Parenthood and support tax payers funding them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 07-26-2014 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-27-2014 2:17 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 113 (734200)
07-26-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2014 11:11 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Your open indiference leaves no evidence lacking for my position.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 113 (734205)
07-26-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mram10
07-26-2014 5:57 PM


Do you have a passport?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 113 (734228)
07-26-2014 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mram10
07-26-2014 10:53 AM


How many criminals are second offenders? How many commit numerous other crimes against their fellow man? You would protect their lives, while they terrorize others?
Just how many crimes are intending to punish with the death penalty? Armed robbery? burglary?
The death penalty is an alternative to punishing people who, for the most part, are never getting out of jail, ever. There is absolutely no evidence that either penalty has an advantage over the other for deterring crime.
For those with the "sanctity of life" argument, are you also Pro- Life?
When does life begin? Might we not reach different answers about this important question if we had different answers to that question? Have you ever used a condom? Do you have a family of ten kids?
I don't see how anyone who has considered these issues would ask the questions you do. The answers I, and others are giving you are the easy answers anyone could anticipate if they exerted the smallest effort. Typical.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 113 (734231)
07-26-2014 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
07-25-2014 10:57 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
On top of this, executions receive little public attention so that citizens are ever aware of, and even comforted by, the death brought by their society's laws without ever having to face the horror of the thing itself.
I'd like to see you support this proposition because it seems contrary to my experience. Executions in NC are fairly rare, and because of that infrequency, they seem to draw enormous national attention. On top of that, the victims families, who are among those who would be comforted the most, are front and center at executions if that is their choice. By what measure is the publicity too little or insufficient?
I note in passing that CS made this point before I did.
State-sanctioned killing is not the cause of murder, but it makes it an acceptable choice to some of those whose minds have already gone there. As a detterant it fails.
Yes, I agree that the death penalty fails as a deterrent, but do you really believe people are motivated to kill more because there is capital punishment? Or are you saying something else? What support is there for this proposition?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 07-25-2014 10:57 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 07-27-2014 2:35 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 428 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 28 of 113 (734244)
07-27-2014 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


It seems (simple observation) that the majority of people that are against the Death Penalty are also Anti-Gun.
Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them, while giving leave to the criminals because of the effect weapon have on them?
It makes sense to me that people who would carry a lethal weapon for self defence would also support the death penalty. What doesn't make sense is believing that we all require forgiveness and salvation while at the same time supporting the death penalty. How much cognitive dissonance lubricant do you need to be a pro death penalty Christian?

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 113 (734250)
07-27-2014 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mram10
07-26-2014 5:57 PM


mram10 writes:
Thus, removing a criminal with 40 crimes under his/her belt would better society 40 fold.
Your math doesn't make any sense. But in any case, I said I was against removing criminals from society by killing them. I'm not necessarily against removing them to prisons. And to expand the logic, I'm not against removing the license to drive, permanently, if that will make the roads safer.
mram10 writes:
You obviously have no idea how to deal with a threat.
Is killing people the only way you can think of to remove a threat?
mram10 writes:
As for abortion, funny how you consider killing humans non of your business.
I said I was pro-life. I'm against forcing other people to be pro-life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mram10, posted 07-26-2014 5:57 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 113 (734252)
07-27-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
07-26-2014 11:32 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
I'd like to see you support this proposition because it seems contrary to my experience. Executions in NC are fairly rare, and because of that infrequency, they seem to draw enormous national attention. On top of that, the victims families, who are among those who would be comforted the most, are front and center at executions if that is their choice. By what measure is the publicity too little or insufficient?
If we showed the execution itself, I think public opinion would change rather quickly. Some "bad man" is dying, but behind a closed door; we can feel good about the "justice" we've delivered without ever needing to confront the true horror of what we've done.
Yes, I agree that the death penalty fails as a deterrent, but do you really believe people are motivated to kill more because there is capital punishment? Or are you saying something else? What support is there for this proposition?
I'm saying capital punishment fosters a "wild west" mentality where people out for blood can feel justified in going after it.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2014 11:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2014 5:26 PM Jon has replied

  
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