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Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 113 (734288)
07-27-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
07-27-2014 2:35 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
If we showed the execution itself, I think public opinion would change rather quickly.
I don't think this is true. Executions used to be public. Also, there was a recent execution in Arizona that took nearly two hours. The state and the the victim's family seem perfectly fine with that, and the reaction I've read in my places on the internet indicates that many people agree. There seems to be a large segment of the population who would be perfectly okay with getting rid of the eight amendment.
I'm saying capital punishment fosters a "wild west" mentality where people out for blood can feel justified in going after it.
That's what I thought. Now can you back up your feelings with something more substantive?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 07-27-2014 2:35 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2014 3:20 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 07-28-2014 11:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 32 of 113 (734327)
07-28-2014 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
07-27-2014 5:26 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
NN writes:
Also, there was a recent execution in Arizona that took nearly two hours.
It was the second such event and got a lot of publicity over here. It was reported in a way which was similar to reports of floggings and stonings in less developed countries. I was wondering how Americans thought about it and whether they even knew.
The 'problems' have been caused because the US got its drugs from the EU who have now banned their sale to states that use them in inhuman ways. They are now experimenting with new drugs and getting it wrong.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 113 (734338)
07-28-2014 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
07-28-2014 3:20 AM


The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
The 'problems' have been caused because the US got its drugs from the EU who have now banned their sale to states that use them in inhuman ways. They are now experimenting with new drugs and getting it wrong.
Personally I am against the death penalty -- in practice it costs more than life in prison AND it is not a reversible process in case later evidence\review shows the person is innocent of that crime. There are too many cases of reversed decisions not to consider this as wanton murder of innocent people.
The evidence also shows that it has little impact on reducing murders (especially murders of passion).
Education has shown reduced recidivism, but has been defunded by GOP jealous of prisoners getting better education than they had ().
But, IF I HAD to kill someone, I can think of several methods that would result in death:
They all start with anesthetizing the victim into a state of unconsciousness or induced coma (and one could add happy hallucinogenics if one wanted):
  1. no additional life support -- the body will dehydrate and die of starvation,
  2. death by surgery -- remove organs for transplant into people that need them (heart, kidneys, livers, etc),
  3. death by exsanguination -- drain the body of blood, or
  4. death by freezing -- freeze until heart and lung stop (see uniform determination of death)
Off the top of my head.
Enjoy ... if that is your kind of 'thing' ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 113 (734344)
07-28-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by RAZD
07-28-2014 7:51 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
RAZD writes:
2.death by surgery -- remove organs for transplant into people that need them (heart, kidneys, livers, etc)
Now that is an interesting one.
My immediate reaction is to recoil in horror and dismiss the idea as barbarically immoral.
But let's say we have a mass murderer whose guilt we can be as certain of as is possible. Harvesting their organs could save the lives of many innocent people.
Would it be immoral to save those lives in this way?
I have to say I think it would be immoral. I would not advocate it.
But this is possibly the closest I can think of to a situation where the death penalty might be able to make a valid moral case.
Anyway - An interesting notion.

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 113 (734346)
07-28-2014 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
07-28-2014 8:53 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
But this is possibly the closest I can think of to a situation where the death penalty might be able to make a valid moral case.
Anyway - An interesting notion.
Interesting, yes. The topic of punishing people in this way has been the subject of science fiction. (The Jigsaw Man). But in my opinion, the idea that criminals forfeit their rights to their organs is ultimately a horrifying equation. I don't think this makes the death penalty more moral, but it would make it more attractive.
ABE:
We've actually had three botched executions all attributable to the use of new combinations of drugs used as lethal injections.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 07-28-2014 8:53 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by xongsmith, posted 07-28-2014 11:06 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 07-28-2014 5:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 36 of 113 (734348)
07-28-2014 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
07-28-2014 9:53 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
NoNukes writes:
...the idea that criminals forfeit their rights to their organs is ultimately a horrifying equation.
Assuming the death penalty never disappears, what if we allowed the criminal to choose this option?
I, personally, would want to abolish the death penalty, but if it still has to exist?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 9:53 AM NoNukes has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 37 of 113 (734350)
07-28-2014 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
07-28-2014 8:53 AM


Saving Lives
But let's say we have a mass murderer whose guilt we can be as certain of as is possible. Harvesting their organs could save the lives of many innocent people.
Would it be immoral to save those lives in this way?
Now let's say we have a perfectly innocent person with healthy organs. Would harvesting those organs to save 4 other people be moral?
No?
So allowing 4 people to die to save one life is moral?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 07-28-2014 8:53 AM Straggler has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1582 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 38 of 113 (734352)
07-28-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
07-28-2014 8:53 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent

Monty python classic.
Don't click if your easily grossed out!
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 113 (734353)
07-28-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by RAZD
07-28-2014 7:51 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
RAZD writes:
They all start with anesthetizing the victim into a state of unconsciousness or induced coma (and one could add happy hallucinogenics if one wanted):
If you must have the death penalty, I think you should get rid of the pretense that it's done "humanely".
It should be done with a teaspoon. And the ones who support it - e.g. the victim's family - should be the ones to do it.

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1582 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 40 of 113 (734355)
07-28-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


2 birds with one stone
How about we take all the guns in the country and lock them up in a giant city like new york along with all violent criminals and let them dispatch themselves?
Ridding the country of both guns and criminals.
We could put cameras all over the place and have a fantastic reality show to boot.
We could call it....Escape from New York!
Oh its been done? Rats.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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 Message 1 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 12:33 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 41 of 113 (734367)
07-28-2014 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NosyNed
07-28-2014 11:13 AM


Re: Saving Lives
NN writes:
So allowing 4 people to die to save one life is moral?
It can be.
NN writes:
Now let's say we have a perfectly innocent person with healthy organs. Would harvesting those organs to save 4 other people be moral?
No. I don't think it would.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NosyNed, posted 07-28-2014 11:13 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 42 of 113 (734382)
07-28-2014 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
07-28-2014 9:53 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
Interesting, yes. The topic of punishing people in this way has been the subject of science fiction. (The Jigsaw Man). But in my opinion, the idea that criminals forfeit their rights to their organs is ultimately a horrifying equation. I don't think this makes the death penalty more moral, but it would make it more attractive.
And the larger issue would be ensuring that the party was guilty rather than the possessor of wanted organs ... it would open up a slippery slope of people being found guilty in order to supply organs.
Look at how our prison system has been corrupted already by for profit corporations and then consider how easy it could be to "upgrade" a prisoner to death sentence due to inappropriate behavior in prison rather than stuffing them into solitary confinement ...
... I thought it was the most horrid idea.
We've actually had three botched executions all attributable to the use of new combinations of drugs used as lethal injections.
Which is why I believe lethal injections are immoral. Perhaps we should ask the executioners to find a method that they would accept being used on themselves if it was ever warrented: the golden rule eh?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 9:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 7:16 PM RAZD has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 113 (734385)
07-28-2014 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by xongsmith
07-28-2014 11:06 AM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
Assuming the death penalty never disappears, what if we allowed the criminal to choose this option?
There is no issue with this. I see no difference between this and my own decision to be an organ donor.
I, personally, would want to abolish the death penalty, but if it still has to exist?
I believe that the Death penalty grafted onto some kind of involuntary organ donor program would inevitably become a new kind of evil that's even worse than the current state of affairs.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by xongsmith, posted 07-28-2014 11:06 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 113 (734386)
07-28-2014 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
07-28-2014 5:50 PM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
And the larger issue would be ensuring that the party was guilty rather than the possessor of wanted organs ... it would open up a slippery slope of people being found guilty in order to supply organs.
It might also lead to a state interest in reducing the number of appeals so we get the organs while the donor is still young and hale. Thus enhancing the chance of executing the innocent.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 07-28-2014 5:50 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 07-28-2014 10:02 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 45 of 113 (734412)
07-28-2014 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
07-28-2014 7:16 PM


Re: The Death Penalty is not a Deterrent
It might also lead to a state interest in reducing the number of appeals so we get the organs while the donor is still young and hale. Thus enhancing the chance of executing the innocent.
Indeed. And new medical procedures that would benefit rich old people by using materials from young poor people.
Very dangerous precedent.
For the record, my preference of the lot was freezing.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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