Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,597 Year: 4,854/9,624 Month: 202/427 Week: 12/103 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 113 (734416)
07-28-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
07-27-2014 5:26 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Executions used to be public.
And yet now they are not.
There seems to be a large segment of the population who would be perfectly okay with getting rid of the eight amendment.
And yet they never have to watch the killing.
That's what I thought. Now can you back up your feelings with something more substantive?
Not tonight.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2014 5:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 11:28 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 113 (734417)
07-28-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
07-28-2014 11:20 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
NoNukes writes:
Executions used to be public
Jon writes:
And yet now they are not.
If you have a point make it. My point is that being public in the past did not result in people wanting to get rid of the death penalty here. Hangings and Guillotinings seem to make great spectacles and picnic opportunities.
I can provide you with a counter argument if you don't have one of your own. But given that you were dismissing CS for not providing an answer to your argument, you might look pretty silly if you take me up on it.
I Ask Jon if he has some kind of substantive argument other than his feelings
Not tonight
Exactly.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 07-28-2014 11:20 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-29-2014 2:34 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 113 (734454)
07-29-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
07-28-2014 11:28 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
If you have a point make it. My point is that being public in the past did not result in people wanting to get rid of the death penalty here. Hangings and Guillotinings seem to make great spectacles and picnic opportunities.
Why reference time periods in which public attitudes were very different than they are today? Based on the information in this article ("Americans Favor The Death Penalty, But Few Want The Executed To Suffer"), it is hard to imagine a public hanging or guillotining attracting much positive attention.
I Ask Jon if he has some kind of substantive argument other than his feelings
Not tonight
Exactly.
Poor form.
Nevertheless, here is some information linking the use of the death penalty to increased murder (I also used to have a book, full of good stuff, but I will have to settle with these couple of things for now.):
1. Message 7
2.
quote:
"Death Penalty An Ineffective Deterrent" in The Tech:
Texas, Florida, and Louisiana are among the leaders nationwide in executions -- and lead the nation in murders per 100,000 people. Mississippi is under investigation for dozens of jail house lynchings the past few years. If you look through the list in the Uniform Crime Report of cities with populations over 10 thousand, you rarely see a city in Mississippi or Texas without at least one murder. The large majority of cities in Massachusetts have no murders.
This suggests that the death penalty promotes murder instead of deterring it. Death penalty opponents often cite a study of New York City indicating that on the average two more murders occurred during the month following an execution there than otherwise. The murder rate in Canada dropped after the death penalty was abolished there.
Now, you can say that correlation does not prove causation, or even claim that areas using the death penalty do so out of necessity on account of their high murder rates.
One thing is certain: there is definitely a correlation between the "wild west" mentality and the use of capital punishment.
What I suppose is not entirely certain is whether capital punishment creates that "wild west" mentality, or whether it is a "wild west" mentality that is responsible for capital punishment's continued employment and popularity.
But does it really matter? Either way you write the story, the continued use of capital punishment is most definitely a marker of the illness of the society that employs it (whether that illness is a cause or a reaction). Any society would benefit from the elimination of the death penalty for no other reason than as a sign to the world that it is not sick, or at least not as sick as places such as Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, or the U.S.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : Clarity... and other important stuff.
Edited by Jon, : Even more clarity...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 11:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-29-2014 11:45 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2014 12:56 PM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 49 of 113 (734464)
07-29-2014 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
07-29-2014 2:34 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
one problem with abolishing the death penelty is that it is more expensive to keep them in prison for life. Why not save the public a few bucks?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-29-2014 2:34 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Coyote, posted 07-29-2014 11:47 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 3:00 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 07-30-2014 8:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 50 of 113 (734466)
07-29-2014 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
07-29-2014 11:45 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
With appeals and all the rest, they are often in prison for decades anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-29-2014 11:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 51 of 113 (734498)
07-30-2014 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
07-29-2014 11:45 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Not that cost should be a consideration but:
Report of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice (2008)
"The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California's current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually."
Los Angeles Times Study Finds California Spends $250 Million per Execution (2005)
Key Points:
The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.)
With 11 executions spread over 27 years, on a per execution basis, California and federal taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each execution.
It costs approximately $90,000 more a year to house an inmate on death row, than in the general prison population or $57.5 million annually.
The Attorney General devotes about 15% of his budget, or $11 million annually to death penalty cases.
The California Supreme Court spends $11.8 million on appointed counsel for death row inmates.
The Office of the State Public Defender and the Habeas Corpus Resource Center spend a total of $22.3 million on defense for indigent defendants facing death.
The federal court system spends approximately $12 million on defending death row inmates in federal court.
No figures were given for the amount spent by the offices of County District Attorneys on the prosecution of capital cases, however these expenses are presumed to be in the tens of millions of dollars each year.
Source: Tempest, Rone, "Death Row Often Means a Long Life", Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005.
Page not found - Death Penalty Focus
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-29-2014 11:45 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 07-30-2014 7:36 AM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 52 of 113 (734507)
07-30-2014 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
07-30-2014 3:00 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent: the high cost of death
also see
Costs | Death Penalty Information Center
Kansas
Idaho
Colorado
All show higher cost for death penalty cases than life imprisonment cases

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 3:00 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9277
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 53 of 113 (734522)
07-30-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
07-29-2014 11:45 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
one problem with abolishing the death penelty is that it is more expensive to keep them in prison for life. Why not save the public a few bucks?
The facts would belie your comment.
Considering The Death Penalty: Your Tax Dollars At Work
Costs | Death Penalty Information Center

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-29-2014 11:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 113 (734544)
07-30-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
07-29-2014 2:34 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Now, you can say that correlation does not prove causation, or even claim that areas using the death penalty do so out of necessity on account of their high murder rates.
I could say that yes, but in this case, the idea was just to get you to provide some support other than your feelings, and you've finally done that. And besides you've already acknowledged the issue.
But does it really matter? Either way you write the story, the continued use of capital punishment is most definitely a marker of the illness of the society that employs it
It matters because in order to accomplish a change it is necessary to persuade people, and the majority of people do not currently have the opinion that the death penalty is abhorrent. The death penalty is barbaric, it is applied is applied in a discrimination fashion, and we have certainly executed innocent people. And on top of all that, it is costly and ineffective at deterrence. It can only be defended using an eye for an eye mentality that I find incompatible with Christianity. Any one of those reasons are sufficient for me.
However, you are debating the issue with at least one person who does not hold the opinion that the death penalty is a marker of an ill society. Making up BS answers that you cannot support is not helpful.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-29-2014 2:34 PM Jon has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 113 (734555)
07-30-2014 4:33 PM


For laws to be legitimate, they have to reflect the views and morality of the society they are intended to control. It's difficult for extreme laws to continue in a democracy without support from its electorate.
It seems likely to me that a society that supports the barbarity of the death sentence - and, I suppose, the usefulness of torture and the holding of prisoners in countries outside the rules of their own jurisdiction - has normalised the kind of views that most of the rest of the modern, civilised world has discarded as brutal and brutalising.
The USA must be proud to be amongst this elite group.
Death Penalty Permitted
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
North Korea
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
South Sudan
Sudan
Syria
Taiwan
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Vietnam
Yemen
Zimbabwe

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2014 5:39 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 07-30-2014 7:34 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 07-31-2014 12:51 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 113 (734561)
07-30-2014 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-30-2014 4:33 PM


For laws to be legitimate, they have to reflect the views and morality of the society they are intended to control. It's difficult for extreme laws to continue in a democracy without support from its electorate.
Is continuance of immoral laws really that difficult to understand? While it is true that the UK has progressed beyond the sad state of affairs that is the US position on the death penalty, one might note that the UK did have the death penalty for about 260-270 years dating from the creation of the UK. That's just a tiny bit older than the US is as a country.
But you do have a point. The US is in some pretty dismal company. And while we are divided evenly over a lot of issues, about 65 percent of us are in favor of the death penalty despite largely agreeing on the negative aspects. I find that difficult to explain.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2014 2:28 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 57 of 113 (734568)
07-30-2014 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-30-2014 4:33 PM


For laws to be legitimate, they have to reflect the views and morality of the society they are intended to control. It's difficult for extreme laws to continue in a democracy without support from its electorate.
In the US, support for the death penalty is treated as a litmus test for being a "true conservative". What keeps it in place is the tribalism in the two party system that we have here in the US. The most conservatives states tend to have the most executions because politicians in those states only face challenges from their conservative flank.
Until conservatives are able to find some moral backbone, we will continue to have executions in the US. I do give credit to Rand Paul for at least beginning to address the inherent injustice in the US justice system. It's a step in the right direction for the Republican party.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 113 (734576)
07-31-2014 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-30-2014 4:33 PM


For laws to be legitimate, they have to reflect the views and morality of the society they are intended to control.
What is legitimacy weighed against the good, the just, and the right?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 113 (734579)
07-31-2014 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
07-30-2014 5:39 PM


NN writes:
Is continuance of immoral laws really that difficult to understand?
In a modern, advanced democracy with significant human rights legislature, it is difficult, yes - it's a massive outlier.
There are extremes in American culture that the rest of Western democracies find inexplicable; from bizzare and primitive religious beliefs, to gun culture, to extreme punitiveness (not just the death penalty, the US prison population is enormous).
They're all irrational - in the sense that those that believe in such things do it against the evidence. It's a puzzle. And sadly it's quite contageous, some of it travels the Atlatic.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2014 5:39 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 60 of 113 (735474)
08-16-2014 12:43 PM


The cost of execution is a breakdown in our system. I am sure a person of average intelligence can find a $20 way to get rid of a criminal.
As for the execution in AZ that went longer than planned. Who cares!? How long did it take the innocent victims to die? Did anyone ask the family of the ex-girlfriend or her father how they felt when he was killing them? Did he make it quick to be humane?
Funny to me, those that are against ridding society of violent offenders. Makes me question your mental health I feel better knowing that those arguing against the death penalty, also argue that killing a defenseless baby in the womb due to monetary or "bad timing" reasons is acceptable.
The insane are running the asylum
As for those in the rest of the world (here is to you, UK)questioning the US's method, feel free to mind your own business. If you want to be enslaved by your gov't without any means of defense, since you handed your guns over, feel free Best of luck to you. Enjoy the fear of not being able to protect yourself or family. Amazing how you talk down to us here, when we have the means to protect ourselves, even with our broken system that is gov't caused.
ps - the criminal with 40 crimes was referring to executing a violent offender the first time, before they can do it again. If you still don't understand, I will explain it again
Edited by mram10, : No reason given.
Edited by mram10, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 08-16-2014 1:09 PM mram10 has not replied
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2014 1:36 PM mram10 has replied
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2014 2:58 PM mram10 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024