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Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 76 of 113 (735536)
08-17-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mram10
08-16-2014 5:28 PM


mram10 writes:
You are saying that a criminal is MORE willing to commit crimes if he is guaranteed to get the death penalty??
A criminal is more likely to escalate his crimes if he is subject to the death penalty. If speeding gets you the death penalty, you have nothing to lose by shooting the officer who tries to arrest you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 5:28 PM mram10 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 113 (735539)
08-17-2014 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mram10
08-16-2014 5:28 PM


militarized police and innocent people being shot
... Let's focus on the majority of violent criminals being repeat offenders ...
You mean like "militarized police" in places like Ferguson MO?
Would Brown have been better off with a gun? If his friend had a gun?
Would the city be more peaceful if the residents protesting the shooting were carrying assault rifles?
On the other hand, if the police did not have guns would Brown have been shot?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 5:28 PM mram10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2014 7:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 113 (735552)
08-17-2014 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mram10
08-16-2014 5:28 PM


All that to say, if we get rid of violent offenders after the first one, we are effectively cutting violent crime in half Crazy math here.
Your math is wrong. If you execute someone who was going to get life imprisonment, then you don't have any effect on crime in the streets. If you are instead planning to execute people who would normally get out after a few years then you need to make a case that you're justified in executing a murderer before he actually kills someone.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 5:28 PM mram10 has not replied

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 79 of 113 (735559)
08-17-2014 11:21 PM


It is interesting how the four of you think you are so wise, yet have no wisdom. Your arguments are ridiculous. Here is why:
1. You blame us influence for your issues in the uk?
2. You cannot do math. I said if we get rid of a murderer the first time, he/she cannot repeat, which is the majority of the time. Thus, they would only commit one crime. Also, they do not sit in jails the rest of their lives, or they wouldn't be considered repeat offenders
3. How is it going against the eighth amendment to be for the death penalty?
I know i am wasting my time, but I need to try. At the end of the day, the four of you are simply illogical and irrational. No skin off my teeth, as they say

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-17-2014 11:52 PM mram10 has not replied
 Message 81 by NoNukes, posted 08-18-2014 12:24 AM mram10 has not replied
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 08-18-2014 11:59 AM mram10 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 113 (735561)
08-17-2014 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mram10
08-17-2014 11:21 PM


Once again I should point out that until you learn to use the reply button your propensity to non sequiturs makes it hard to know to whom your statements are directed or to which of their statements you consider your statements to be a reply. Please learn to use the reply button, and be more liberal in your use of quote boxes. Thank you.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mram10, posted 08-17-2014 11:21 PM mram10 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 81 of 113 (735562)
08-18-2014 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by mram10
08-17-2014 11:21 PM


2. You cannot do math. I said if we get rid of a murderer the first time
That's not what you said, or at least it is not the statement you made with which I took issue. You said that if we removed violent criminals after their first offense, that we could cut the crime rate in half. Nobody would argue with you if you simply said that dead men do not commit crimes.
There are quite a few things wrong with your accounting, and I've already pointed out one or two of those errors. Another problem is that we don't catch always catch criminals after their first offense.
I would expect that someone found of calling others fools would take some pains to be correct, but what I find instead is that you post sloppy stuff, lie or are wrong when you recount what you've posted, and are quick to blame others for not figuring out what you really meant. In this case, it is extremely difficult to interpret your remarks in a way that makes any sense. In fact, it is impossible to do so.
How is it going against the eighth amendment to be for the death penalty?
Nobody said this. You're an idiot.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mram10, posted 08-17-2014 11:21 PM mram10 has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 690 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 82 of 113 (735580)
08-18-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by mram10
08-16-2014 3:22 PM


Of course, this is highly misleading, because of the way difference that crime is counted. In the U.S, 'violent crime' is 4 different things, while in the U.K. they put many more different crimes into that category.
So, this is sort of 'liar liar your pants are on fire' type of claim
PolitiFact | Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 3:22 PM mram10 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 113 (735586)
08-18-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by mram10
08-17-2014 11:21 PM


mram10 writes:
I said if we get rid of a murderer the first time, he/she cannot repeat, which is the majority of the time. Thus, they would only commit one crime. Also, they do not sit in jails the rest of their lives, or they wouldn't be considered repeat offenders
You seem to be suggesting that convicted murderers will murder again if they are released from prison. Do you have any evidence of that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mram10, posted 08-17-2014 11:21 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 84 of 113 (735609)
08-18-2014 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by RAZD
08-17-2014 2:46 PM


Re: militarized police and innocent people being shot
RAZD writes:
Would the city be more peaceful if the residents protesting the shooting were carrying assault rifles?
Strangely enough, fantasies about liberty-loving armed Americans resisting jackbooted government thugs don't feature the colorful residents of Ferguson, MO.
Historical ironies: the right wing promotes "2nd Amendment solutions" to an ever-imminently oppressive government, echoing the credo of the Black Panthers (and Mao), that all power flows from the barrel of a gun...echoing the same Black Panthers who studied the North Korean doctrine of juche, or self-reliance, and created their own soup kitchens, neighborhood watches and schools...sorta like the survivalists and home-schoolers today, most of them gun enthusiasts who anticipate repelling government thugs...
Let me say, as a man of some Sicilian heritage, that clearly, as a species, we have a tendency to go to the mattresses.
Also, the Panthers were pretty much all killed.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by RAZD, posted 08-17-2014 2:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1483 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 85 of 113 (735619)
08-19-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Omnivorous
08-18-2014 7:18 PM


Re: militarized police and innocent people being shot
... Black Panthers who studied the North Korean doctrine of juche, or self-reliance, and created their own soup kitchens, neighborhood watches and schools...sorta like the survivalists and ...
Sorta like Hamas?
Strangely enough, fantasies about liberty-loving armed Americans resisting jackbooted government thugs don't feature the colorful residents of Ferguson, MO.
Or the residents of Palestine?
Curious how oppressed people tend to behave in similar manners ...
Also, the Panthers were pretty much all killed.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Meanwhile more was accomplished in the Civil Rights movement by peaceful non-violent protest than by violence and guns.
And it looks like the peaceful non-violent protests in Ferguson are have more of an effect than the violent outbursts in subduing the police actions and working towards justice. Looks a lot like the 60's all over again.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2014 7:18 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 86 of 113 (735757)
08-23-2014 6:21 PM


Peaceful protests get you no where, if you have no means to defend yourself. The Jews, along with many others, did not fare well against Germany. Only a fool believes that gun control is the means to peace. There were plenty of murders prior to the 19th century.
Again, for those that are so against guns, please feel free to give your up, or sell them to me for cheap.
Violent criminals are not single time offenders. Google "violent crime repeat offenders" and look at the gov't demographics. Educate yourselves before you counter my claims.

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2014 6:30 PM mram10 has not replied
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-23-2014 6:31 PM mram10 has not replied
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-24-2014 2:25 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 87 of 113 (735759)
08-23-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mram10
08-23-2014 6:21 PM


Oh great, the troll is back.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mram10, posted 08-23-2014 6:21 PM mram10 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(6)
Message 88 of 113 (735760)
08-23-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mram10
08-23-2014 6:21 PM


Peaceful protests get you no where, if you have no means to defend yourself.
... as General Gandhi said when he urged his troops to press home the final assault in the Battle of Delhi.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mram10, posted 08-23-2014 6:21 PM mram10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 08-24-2014 3:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 113 (735777)
08-24-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mram10
08-23-2014 6:21 PM


mram10 writes:
Violent criminals are not single time offenders. Google "violent crime repeat offenders" and look at the gov't demographics.
I googled "violent crime repeat offenders" as you suggested and I found this:
quote:
Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%) and those in prison for possessing, using or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide. These are the lowest rates of re-arrest for the same category of crime. link
So violent criminals seem to be much less likely to re-offend than non-violent criminals.
mram10 writes:
Educate yourselves before you counter my claims.
Done and done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mram10, posted 08-23-2014 6:21 PM mram10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2014 2:51 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 113 (735778)
08-24-2014 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
08-24-2014 2:25 PM


Done and done.
Mram10 managed to get you to do his homework.
Curiously enough, there is very little to use in support of the proposition that executing murders would lower the murder rate significantly, although it may have an affect on other crimes.
Perhaps executing people for theft or drug possession would have the effect mram10 is looking for.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-24-2014 2:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-24-2014 3:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2014 3:50 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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