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Author Topic:   More on Diet and Carbohydrates
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 243 (751981)
03-07-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
03-07-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
My own personal ad hoc rule: if it tastes good, it's fattening.
This is an unfortunate truism. If you are having any difficulty at all with weight control, your taste buds clearly cannot be trusted.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 12:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 122 of 243 (751987)
03-07-2015 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
03-07-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
My own personal ad hoc rule: if it tastes good, it's fattening.
I'm eating breakfast now--nothing but bacon.
Tastes good, and holds me all day. I've lost over 20 lbs this way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 12:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:53 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 124 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 3:32 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 243 (751988)
03-07-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Coyote
03-07-2015 12:44 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
Right, nothing but bacon, what's not to like?
I'd still like to know how anyone could have lived through the last few decades and managed not to notice the relentless emphasis on avoiding animal fats and cholesterol everywhere you look.
As for low carb eating I pretty much agree with Percy's list except that I can really love eating nothing but steaks and chops and veggies, bacon or ham or sausage and eggs and salads, and I know from experience that I can lose weight this way and it does lower cholesterol counts and drastically lowers blood sugar counts. HOWEVER, there are various reasons it's hard for me to keep it up consistently, and in my case my arthritis prevents me from doing the amount of exercise necessary to burn off any carb intake. I too easily get into the habit of relying on sandwiches because they're easy meals, but that puts carbs back in my life. Carbs are good for very active people, they are great fuel, but if your lifestyle is sedentary any significant carb intake is going to put on fat.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 124 of 243 (752002)
03-07-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Coyote
03-07-2015 12:44 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
Bacon is great - in fact, any meat is fine, as long as it's not processed.
I guess when I said that I mostly had in mind my wife's many attempts to make good tasting healthy food, because I've found that low-carb eating can become a bit boring. Invariably, if it tasted good we gained weight. It's surprising how many supposed healthy or low-calorie recipes aren't.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 243 (752003)
03-07-2015 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by NoNukes
03-07-2015 10:20 AM


weight gain on USDA diet anecdote
While I was putting together my not-very-carb-free lunch it occurred to me that you were wrong about the anecdote in the article.
The problem with the anecdote is that every diet I've ever heard of has the same poor success rates at achieving significant long term results. Telling us a story about a single person who failed, particularly a story where the details are lacking, is not going to be very convincing.
The poor success rates you are talking about don't occur while a person is ON a diet. All the weight-loss diets seem to work for losing weight if you follow them carefully. It's when you go off them that you regain all the weight you lost because it's just hard to stick to them for one reason or another.
The thing is the USDA diet is a health diet, not a weight-loss diet and she stuck to it for years though she kept gaining weight while ON it. She DIDN'T "fail" at it at all, she stuck to it and gained weight and felt miserable. It was only when she tried a different pattern of eating that she was able to lose the weight.
So you missed the whole point.
However, on the subject of regaining weight after losing it on a weight-loss diet, I don't know if there is a diet anybody can really sustain for lifelong eating. I know some people can stick it out with their diet of choice but I think they are rare.
I can't even stick to the Atkins diet which works great and is my favorite, because I get carb cravings and eventually that is what puts the weight back on. I know if I want to lose in a hurry, though, all I have to do is get the carbs off my plate.
A lot of people don't do Atkins right. Coyote, listen up! I don't know if you can go on with your apparently almost exclusive meat and fat diet but even Atkins doesn't tell us to eliminate the carbs completely forever. You're to do the drastic carb elimination in the first two weeks, maybe longer in harder cases, but then you are to add carbs back in to the diet one at a time, watching their effect on your weight, and that means complex carbs, beans, whole grains etc., no refined flours, rice, potatoes or bread or sugar. When you get through with the diet you add a few of those back but in small portions and at long intervals and that's it. You are not supposed to try to live on a diet of nothing but bacon.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2015 10:20 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 243 (752005)
03-07-2015 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
03-07-2015 12:02 PM


Re: The pervasiveness of the low fat diet
It's OK with me to think about the low carb diets at some point if you like, but before we do would you please confirm the impression that you aren't aware of what seems to Percy and me to be the rampant insistence on avoiding animal fats and cholesterol in our diets, and the symptomatic proliferation of "low fat" offerings, from every conceivable angle of our experience, in the stores and restaurants and all over the media for decades?
I'm not sure what has given you the impression that I've lived under a rock and not noticed 'low-fat' options nor advice on avoiding fats and cholesterol.
But I have no reason to lie to you and make myself look like a fool. Sure, I've heard the endless advice against fat and cholesterol and seen the low-fat options offered everywhere. Who hasn't?
Now let's talk some specifics on the low-carb diets.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 4:28 PM Jon has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 243 (752006)
03-07-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
03-07-2015 4:05 PM


Re: The pervasiveness of the low fat diet
I'm not sure what has given you the impression that I've lived under a rock and not noticed 'low-fat' options nor advice on avoiding fats and cholesterol.
I got the impression that you deny either the existence or the impact of the nationwide propaganda against animal fats and cholesterol and the emphasis on "good" carbs as the healthy way to eat, from your Message 60 and Message 62 to Percy, for instance, and some other posts after that, especially your Message 97 to me in which you almost seem to be saying no such influence exists as Percy and I have experienced it. That's where you say "I don't know anyone who did this," meaning alter their diet to eliminate fats and etc.
If you aren't saying that I need a way to understand why it seems that you are. At the very least you seem to be downplaying it while to me and apparently also to Percy it's been a dominating and just about tyrannical influence on American eating for most of our lives. I don't know ANYONE who wasn't affected by the advice to cut back on fat and cholesterol, making most of their food choices based on it for all those years.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 03-07-2015 4:05 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Jon, posted 03-07-2015 5:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 243 (752007)
03-07-2015 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
03-07-2015 4:28 PM


Re: The pervasiveness of the low fat diet
If you want to discuss low-carb diets, then I'm all ready to discuss low-carb diets.
If you want to go in circles over past confusions, you'll have to do that on your own.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 4:28 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 6:28 PM Jon has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 129 of 243 (752018)
03-07-2015 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Jon
03-07-2015 5:03 PM


Re: The pervasiveness of the low fat diet
Jon writes:
If you want to go in circles over past confusions, you'll have to do that on your own.
If you're implying you never denied there was a pervasive "fat is bad" message out there, then it would be difficult to just forget it and move on. I'd feel there was no point replying to you as later you'd just claim you'd actually meant something different.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Jon, posted 03-07-2015 5:03 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Jon, posted 03-07-2015 6:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 243 (752020)
03-07-2015 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Percy
03-07-2015 6:28 PM


Re: The pervasiveness of the low fat diet
If you're implying you never denied there was a pervasive "fat is bad" message out there
I don't remember denying that that message existed and seems to continue to exist.
Which is why I am a little perplexed that Faith thinks I've been denying these things.
Hell, I've several times clarified your characterization of the USDA guidelines as being 'low fat' by pointing out how restrictive they really are regarding fat intake: use sparingly, etc.
I can't imagine what it is that Faith is reading into my statements to make her think I'm denying the "fat is bad" message.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 6:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 8:12 PM Jon has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 131 of 243 (752039)
03-08-2015 9:08 AM


The Players
As they say, you can't tell the players without a program. I've scanned back through the thread a couple weeks, and here, in alphabetical order, are what I think each person's views are on the areas of the topic on which they've expressed an opinion:
  • Caffeine: Believes that increasing rates of obesity are due to a variety of factor and doesn't see dietary advice as a significant factor.
  • Coyote: Believes that public perceptions about nutrition can influence the mix of products offered by the food industry. Believes a low carb diet is effective for weight loss.
  • Faith: Believes that dietary advice against fat has been pervasive over the past half century or so and has driven significant changes in the American diet in an effort to avoid dietary fat. Believes a variety of factors could be behind the rising rates of obesity, diabetes and heart disease.
  • Jon: Believes that the obesity epidemic is due to bad habits gradually taken up by the American public (primarily increased intake of fast food, junk food and calories in general, and decreased amounts of exercise) and that there is little evidence the nutrition advice community (including the government) played any significant role.
  • NoNukes: Believes that public perceptions of nutrition do not have a significant influence on the mix of products offered by the food industry. Regarding the premise that bad dietary advice caused the obesity/diabetes/heart-disease epidemic, seems to be seeking a direct causal chain of evidence linking dietary advice to health, not statistical correlations.
  • Nwr: Believes government guidelines had very little effect on the eating habits of Americans, nor or on the product mix offered in grocery stores.
  • Percy: Believes that nutrition advice (from a variety of sources but anchored by government guidelines) concerning the detrimental health effects of dietary fat on obesity, diabetes and heart disease is responsible for the increased levels of carbohydrates (especially refined carbohydrates) in the American diet. Because carbohydrates, not fat, are responsible for these diseases of western civilization, this advice caused the very health concerns it was meant to address to dramatically worsen.
PM me feedback, I'll make corrections.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Correct Faith's entry.

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Jon, posted 03-08-2015 3:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 243 (752105)
03-08-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Percy
03-08-2015 9:08 AM


Re: The Players
That's a good list, but where does it get us?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Percy, posted 03-08-2015 9:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 03-08-2015 6:03 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 133 of 243 (752115)
03-08-2015 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Jon
03-08-2015 3:06 PM


Re: The Players
It might help me and Faith more than anyone else. Judging by a couple of the responses we've gotten, it appeared that we hadn't properly ascertained what some people were saying. For instance, we both felt certain that you didn't believe there's been any pervasive "fat is bad" message out there, but you said no. I just wanted to make it easy to avoid getting what different people were saying confused with one another.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Jon, posted 03-08-2015 3:06 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 243 (752118)
03-08-2015 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
03-07-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
I have no specific low-carb diet to enter into the discussion. My own personal recommendations:
  • Avoid refined carbohydrates. This includes anything containing sugar, but also white rice, pasta, white bread, potatoes, etc.
  • Don't trust labeling about whole grains. The American food industry successfully lobbied for a weakening of the labeling standards a number of years ago after they encountered consumer resistance to their whole-grained products. If you've found a tasty whole-grained bread then it very likely isn't really a whole-grained bread. Same with whole-grained pasta. Many whole-grained products today are not much different in terms of calories, carbohydrates and fiber from their refined grained counterparts, and they usually contain more sugar or syrup.
  • If you must consume refined carbohydrates, make sure they aren't combined with fat. Examples of refined carbohydrate/fat combinations to avoid are Chinese fried rice, and potatoes with butter or sour cream.
  • My own personal ad hoc rule: if it tastes good, it's fattening.
That's a good start.
I'm hoping we can get to some particulars eventually; something similar to the USDA guidelines that specify servings and proportions.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 03-07-2015 12:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 8:08 PM Jon has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 243 (752123)
03-08-2015 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Jon
03-08-2015 7:30 PM


Re: Anatomy of a Low-Carb Diet
Here's a pyramid for the Atkins Diet that I just found. I didn't check to see if it's up to date but it looks pretty much like what I understand from the diet:
Edited by Admin, : Add image to message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Jon, posted 03-08-2015 7:30 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Jon, posted 03-08-2015 8:12 PM Faith has replied

  
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