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Author Topic:   Burials
dwise1
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Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 16 of 94 (736335)
09-07-2014 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
09-06-2014 11:31 PM


Jon, there were several inventions patented for that very purpose. In the Victorian Age there seemed to be a fascination with people being mistaken for dead and accidentally buried alive. Certainly it had to have happened at times in the past, before the use of embalming, though post-embalming the process should certainly kill the dead person nonetheless. Coffins with escape hatches was one type of invention, while another type was ways to signal the above-ground world as to your plight having awakened in a burred coffin. The only one of the latter type that I remember (I had to have read that at least a couple decades ago) was a bell mounted in the headstone attached to a cord that went down to the coffin into the hand of its most-probably-departed occupant.
As I have heard, customs surrounding the dead include measures and waiting periods to ensure that the dead person is indeed dead. The viewing, in which somebody is always present to observe the open casket of the individual. The wake in which the dead person is the centerpiece, or close to it. To have many witnesses together to observe the departed at all times and to effectively verify that he/she is indeed dead. Of course the same customs also have cultural, emotional, and psychological purposes.
What's more, I cannot be sure that I will be dead when I am dead. Maybe my brain will keep working for a while; maybe I will be "alive" when I am killed by the examiners. And that scares me most: to be dead but still alive. To sense my loved ones gathering round me and being helpless. To wake underground! It is paralysis. I fear paralysis.
Have you ever watched the cable-movie-channel series, Dead Like Me? Loved that show, but then I saw it after the death of my son and the destruction of my life. Its premise was that some of the departed become Reapers whose job is to release souls from the bodies. Their supervisor (played by Mandy Patinkin) would mysteriously receive a list of people to die and when, though those lists are not complete in their information, so the Reapers assigned to them have to do some guesswork. He would transfer that list to Post-Its that he would hand out to his Reapers at their morning meetings in Der Waffle Haus. Reapers need to show up on time for the death, observe and figure out who's to die, and touch them in order to release their soul before death, so that the soul does not need to experience that death. Further details are that Reapers deal with people who died the same way as they did -- Reapers who were victims of the Plague are basically stuck in their existence, since Reapers are released randomly in performing their duty. The main character, Georgie, was killed by a piece of space-vehicle debris that re-entered the atmosphere, a space toilet, so she has to be a Reaper for people who die violent deaths, Mandy's group at Der Waffle Haus.
What makes this relevant to your post is that Georgie, being a teenager, rebelled against the Reaper system and refused to release a soul. Mandy took her to the morgue where the guy's body was being kept after the autopsy. His soul was still in the body during the autopsy and he was awake and aware throughout the procedure. She learned her lesson.
OK, so now I've completely freaked you out. Or I've turned you onto a show that you will want to track down. Or both. It's no longer on NetFlix, BTW.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(5)
Message 17 of 94 (736338)
09-07-2014 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Funny, I thought that name was spelled "Leeroy Jenkins!" Are you aware of the Icelandic movie, "Astropia"? Low-budget, though not painfully so. It was on NetFlix but no longer is so. The premise is kind of similar to that of "Big Bang Theory" on TV, though the movie came out in August of 2007 and BBT debuted in September 2007. A knock-out beauty (played by a former Miss Iceland, Ragnhildur Steinunn Jnsdttir) whose rich boyfriend she'd been living off of has been arrested is desperate for a job, so she applies to work in a comic-book store. Her first entrance in the store is classic as everybody there freezes and one of two patrons dressing in Star Trek:TNG uniforms drops his merchandize; the only female patron, a geek grrl named Beta, remarks in English to a friend, "I sense a great disturbance in the Force." She is put in charge of the role-gaming department and, knowing nothing about RPGs, she starts playing them, etc, etc. Later when her boyfriend and other prisoners escape from prison and kidnap her, her RPG friends assemble to rescue her. The one who had summoned them tried to appraise them of the situation and to present his plan, but Beta immediately shouts "LEEROY JENKINS" and leads the charge that everybody else had no choice but to follow. Just thought you'd appreciate that story and I hope you can find a DVD of that movie. BTW, the name Beta had chosen for her DnD character was ... Inigo Montoya.
As for the rest, you are young and you will learn more as you mature. That is to be expected. I am 62 years old and have been an atheist for about a full half-century, having become one a bit younger than you had.
Society runs according to its culture. A society's culture develops and adapts over time in a manner not dissimilar to the processes of evolution, such that we feel confident to speak in terms of "cultural evolution." Basically, the culture that is able to function well enough (remember, natural selection is not "survival of the fittest", but rather "survival of the good-enough") will be one that can thrive, whereas cultures that institute changes that do not work will be in danger of not surviving. Cultures that survive are ones that are able to sufficiently balance the needs of the society with the needs of the individuals within that society, with the factors stressing that society influencing which way that balance must tilt. It is by no means an easy call to make and in many if not most cases in which an arbitrary call is been made the outcome will not be good. Every plan to create a perfect society has unforeseen consequences of its implementation. A major factor in the ultimate outcome of arbitrary decisions made by a government (AKA "the laws that its legislature enacts") is in how the population, which includes both individuals and corporations and other aggregate entities (eg, unions, associations), reacts to those arbitrary decisions. If a "solution" to fix one specific problem conflicts with a myriad of other social structures, then that creates a problem. When a proper solution to a problem creates a myriad of abuses of the system, then that creates a problem. Everything within the system is interrelated; change one part of the system and you affect other parts of the system, most often in ways you never could have predicted. Kid, welcome to the grown-up world.
Is there any practical sense in maintaining land for cemeteries? No, not really. I live in a region of Southern California where real estate is really crazy and population density has been increasing dramatically. Where can we bury all these people and who could afford to buy the land to bury them on? Now, in some societies (mostly Latin America, from what I've heard), cemetery plots are rented out, not sold. So if your family falls behind on its rent, you get dug up and your remains are transferred to the catacombs (or some other large-group-remains arrangement) and your grave can be used by somebody else. That is one society's solution to this problem; there are many others.
OK, so we cremate everybody and they're kept on some family member's mantle or bookcase. Is that satisfactory? How does the family keep track of those remains? I grew up with two older sisters, but we all had an even older sister, the first-born of our family, Sandra Jean. She was born with a birth defect in which her esophagus had failed to attached to her stomach, but rather had attached to her lungs; every time she was fed, she would start to drown. There was no choice but to allow her to starve to death. In 1941 there was no corrective surgery for her yet; that was not developed until a year later. My mother's family were all back east in Illinois; only my father's family was out west with them in California. My father and his family told my mother that Sandra Jean's body had been donated to science; as reported, the corrective surgery for that particular birth defect was devised a year later, so for the rest of her life (54 years thereafter) she at least had that to inadequate console her for the death of her child. My father and his family had lied to her. In 2001, years after both my parents' deaths, my sister tracked down our sister, Sandra Jean, to a local cemetery where she had been kept on a shelf all these decades. Now, with that family history, I'm faced with a similar situation. 12 years ago, my younger son killed himself. Two years later, we divorced. I agreed to allow my ex-wife to keep his ashes, since I am an honorable man who would not deprive a mother of that little comfort. In the divorce, we had agreed that I would receive his remains upon her death, but she is not an honorable woman and I have received intelligence that she has no intention to allow me to regain possession of my son's remains. My sister, Sandra Jean, went missing for 60 years; I do not have that much time to wait out to find my son again. Just to hang a lantern on this foreshadowing, I have a very strong emotional stake in this issue.
You want to argue for a totally rational solution to the problem of handling the dead. Do you read science fiction? If not, then you should: "Those who ignore the lessons of science fiction are doomed to live them." If you do, then please read one of classic short stories: The Cold Equations, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Equations:
quote:
The story takes place entirely aboard an Emergency Dispatch Ship (EDS) headed for the frontier planet Woden with a load of desperately needed medical supplies. The pilot, Barton, discovers a stowaway: an eighteen-year-old girl. By law, all EDS stowaways are to be jettisoned because EDS vessels carry no more fuel than is absolutely necessary to land safely at their destination. The girl, Marilyn, merely wants to see her brother, Gerry, and was not aware of the law. When boarding the EDS, Marilyn saw the "UNAUTHORIZED PERSONNEL KEEP OUT!" sign, but thought she would at most have to pay a fine if she were caught. Barton explains that her presence dooms the mission by exceeding the weight limit, and the subsequent crash would kill both of them and doom the colonists awaiting the medical supplies. After contacting her brother for the last moments of her life, Marilyn willingly walks into the airlock and is ejected into space.
The story, first published in the August 1954 issue of Astounding, has been widely anthologized and even dramatized.
I encountered that short story in an English lit class. Almost everybody in the class argued passionately against the decision to space the girl, even suggesting that the pilot, Barton, sacrifice himself for her, totally disregarding the simple fact that she could not have landed the ship to complete its mission. The cold equations are complete. There is no other solution. We are all trapped by them. And yet everybody who reads that story rebels against it.
So if we apply cold equations to how we handle the dead, what will be the reaction? Will everybody accept the inevitable? Or will they rebel against it?
How do we handle the dead? Why do we handle them in that manner? OK, let's put that in evolutionary terms with an analogy. Have you studied the human eye yet? The blind spot? The retina, with the light-receptors pointing backwards? Very inefficient. How could that possibly be the "best" solution? Well, it isn't! Why isn't everything done in the most efficient manner possible? Because that's not the way that evolution works. Evolution works by starting with whatever already exists; if an eye's retina starts with the light receptors pointing backwards, then that's what you are stuck with.
So then, how do we handle the dead and why do we handle them in that manner? This is where history and cultural tradition come into play. Why bury them? Well, we have to do something with the dead, dispose of them in some way. Burial is one option that has existed at least back to the Neanderthals. Why six feet deep? Well, a shallow grave would allow scavengers to dig up the remains and eat them. Apparently, six feet deep had somehow been established as deeper than a scavenging animal would dig.
What about cremation? That has certainly been chosen by some cultures. Of course, the last episode of "The Last Ship" notwithstanding as well as the traditional punishment for homosexuals by burning at the stake leading to referencing them as "faggots" (ie, pieces of wood for the fire), human bodies do not burn very readily but rather require a not insignificant amount of accelerant
to complete the job. But unless in situations of highly restricted resources (eg, Berlin at its fall, when gasoline was required to cremate Hitler's remains), that should not be a problem -- eg, Hindu funeral pyres.
But what happens when there is a cultural requirement for the preservation of the body? We saw that in Egypt, wherein even defacing public representations of someone would result in a similar defacing in the after live (or, as suggested by Douglas Adams, in an aprs-vie). There does not appear to be a similar Christian belief, but preservation of the body does seem to still persist. Leeroy (er, Leroy), I was raised Protestant. As a trained Catholic, do please tell us the Catholic teaching about the preservation of the body of the deceased and what the Catholic teachings are about cremation.
Now, at this point you should be thinking about the population's thoughts about burial and about cremation. Here is something that you probably do not know about people: they hate change. They resist change. They will be willing to do anything they can to oppose change. They hate change.
There are traditional attitudes about burial. If you try to change those attitudes, they will resist you. There are traditional attitudes about cremation. If you try to change those attitudes, they will resist you. Even if you are completely right, they will resist you.
Now, eventually, more and more the economic factors will win out. More and more people will find that they cannot afford to buy burial plots and so must resort to cremation or other options.
But still, the emotional state of the family will come into play. For example, I had agreed to have my father cremated. He could have been cremated in a cardboard container or in a wooden one. The cardboard container would have made so much more practical sense, but I chose the wooden one. That was an entirely emotional decision. Leeroy, have you lost a parent yet? Or a child? Have you ever had to make that decision? Do please let me know when you have.
So what's the use of funerals or of burials or cremations? To the dead, none of that means anything at all. To the living, the survivors, that can mean a very great deal.
James Burke was a correspondent for the BBC. I first encountered him in a latter Apollo Moon Mission TV report in which he covered the moon astronauts' toilet protocols (ie, diapers). Later, he did a number of series that ran on PBS called "Connections", in which he would trace historical technological and social developments. In his episode on the development of the information age, he started with medieval Europe where absolutely everything anybody could possibly know had to be memorized. He pointed out that all that graphically ornate artwork in Catholic churches was actually learning, whereas the "artwork" in Protestant churches, which emphasized directly studying Scripture, is austere and abstract -- eg, in a friend's family he was Catholic and she was Protestant and when he took their son to a Catholic service, suddenly his son shouted out, "Hey! Who's that guy on that cross?"
Part of James Burke's treatment involved how people used to remember things. Souvenirs. Why buy souvenirs? You were there, you remember everything, so why buy souvenirs? How do people remember things? After my own life had fallen completely apart, I started writing down a timeline of what had happened when. Every event had some other event associated with it. When did I meet that special friend? What were we first discussing or what movie did we first go to see? Souvenirs, come back to us. That is the key.
To begin with, the ancient academies used to rely entirely on memorizing everything. For example, after the Diaspora (the dispersion of the Jews after the Romans destroyed their homeland), the Talmud developed. The Talmud is the entirety of Jewish learning in one epic work the size of an encyclopedia. There is not index, there is not table of contents, there is absolutely no organization whatsoever. The entire Talmud had to be memorized completely. Have you ever watched the original Star Trek series? "Dagger of the Mind", screenwriter Simon Bar David. Kirk is reminded of the story of the philosopher who was challenged to recite the whole of human wisdom while standing on one foot. Actually, that was the chief Pharisee, Rabbi Hillel, who was so challenged by an arrogant Gentile. His response was, "Do not to others that which is displeasing to yourself. That is the whole of the Law (ie, the first five books of the Bible, AKA the Torah), the rest is just explanation. Now go and learn it." Yes, that was the Golden Rule, delivered in 20BCE, 50 years before Jesus' purported ministry.
So in that pre-information age, how did you remember everything? With souvenirs. Knives and other practical tools that you would use forever were popular. You'd be asked about some event and you had been given a knife during that event, so with that knife you'd remember that event. You had no written reference to depend on, only your own memory.
Who were your ancestors? How would you ever know? They are in the cemetery. Your family history all right there. Whom have you lost so far, so very young and nave as you are? Are your grandparents still alive? If they are not, then when you gaze upon their headstones do you not remember them? If they had died when you were too young, when your parents gaze upon their headstones do they not remember them? Do you not listen to your parents at that time? Why not?
Headstones are souvenirs, they recall for us the memories of the events that they represent. Graves are not silly, but rather they are history. History is extremely important, but the very young seem to oblivious to that fact. And when history has been obliterated, then it is gone forever.
Children care nothing for history. Old people (like me) care greatly for history. When children, such as yourself, destroy history, then when later they care greatly for history and that is no longer any history, then it is their fault and nobody else's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 18 of 94 (736339)
09-07-2014 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dwise1
09-07-2014 6:17 AM


dwise1 writes:
Children care nothing for history. Old people (like me) care greatly for history. When children, such as yourself, destroy history, then when later they care greatly for history and that is no longer any history, then it is their fault and nobody else's.
Thank you for your fascinating post--I particularly appreciate the interlocking stories: my personal belief is that human understanding requires narrative. Your essay is a brilliant example.
But I have to disagree with the quote above. Nothing our children do is absolutely their fault "and nobody else's."
We can't have civilization without individual responsibility, but that doesn't mean we should accept the fiction that we are completely self-determined creatures. We are not. We are products of contingent, random and arbitrary causes--some of which are the faults in others.
Understanding comes dearly. The more we understand our origins, the more responsible for ourselves we become, and the more compassion we must grant our fellow flawed creatures.
The alternative is bitter isolation.
quote:
This Be The Verse
--Philip Larkin
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dwise1, posted 09-07-2014 6:17 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 94 (736342)
09-07-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Hi Leroy Jenkins, and welcome to the fray
I don't really understand the point of proper graves. They allegedly help to remember the deceased ...
It's a carryover from ancestor worship\reverence, still seen in other parts of the world. Certainly the practice of burial pre-dates all major religions ... so the practice is adopted by the religions rather than the religion being the basis for it.
... I advocate cremation for everyone, ...
On an oak barge\ship floating on the sea ...
My parents died a while ago, and they are still in cardboard boxes, which we plan to mix with their favorite alcohol and then sprinkle in the bay in front of their home.
Another thought is to mix the ashes with clay and make garden gnomes.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 20 of 94 (736346)
09-07-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


I advocate cremation for everyone
Why waste the energy and contribute to pollution?
I have 20 acres of land. Plenty of land to bury body. Most states actually have very few laws and regulations for the disposal of a body. Here in WI it is perfectly legal for my dead corpse to buried on our property. My wife will just have to file a map with the county showing where the remains are.
I plan to be in a simple wooden box. I know a couple woodworkers that are willing to build a simple tasteful coffin. Ideally, I would rather just be left in the woods for the wildlife to feast upon and scatter, but I don't think my wife would appreciate the dogs dragging parts of me up to the back porch.
I can think of no better use of my body than for the local bears, wolves and coyotes to feast on. As that is not possible the worms and the bugs in the ground will have to do the job.
A huge bear was just taken just behind our property. Maybe some day my body will be bear bait.
Recycle me.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 21 of 94 (736349)
09-07-2014 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Theodoric
09-07-2014 1:45 PM


I plan to be in a simple wooden box. I know a couple woodworkers that are willing to build a simple tasteful coffin. Ideally, I would rather just be left in the woods for the wildlife to feast upon and scatter, but I don't think my wife would appreciate the dogs dragging parts of me up to the back porch.
Check out the various bone farms. These are used extensively in forensic research, and produce a lot of good information.
Body farm - Wikipedia
One of my Anthropology professors had his body sent there, then went on to the Smithsonian where he was on display for quite a while (maybe still is).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 22 of 94 (736350)
09-07-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coyote
09-07-2014 3:11 PM


One of my exes wants to be a drawing/anatomy class skeleton.
Makes sense: she has great bones and a delicate exhibitionist blush.
I've encountered both true and fictional accounts of body farms. I love mysteries.
I'd make a great murder corpse, innocent but meaty.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 94 (736360)
09-08-2014 2:38 AM


Ancestor worship may account for some burial practices, or the deification of royalty as well. Ancient royal tombs like this one recently unearthed in Macedonia are fascinating as they lavish the departed with treasures to accompany them to the afterlife.
But I think burial probably mostly has to do with the sense most peoples have had that the soul is immortal. I also think there's a basic respect for humanity implied in burial and funeral ceremonies, that seems to be lost in our modern so-called enlightened progressive viewpoint that is either content, or pretends to be content, with being reduced to fertilizer or a skeleton in an anatomy class. Pretty sad in my opinion that there is so little respect for the human individual that feelings are all boiled down to personal relationships while humanity itself is treated as so much trash. I suppose most would deny this but most of the posts on this thread imply it. And where does it come from? Oh, probably from your proud evolutionism and atheism, right?
I guess you could relegate the burial rites of primitive peoples to superstition, including Europeans up to Darwin or the Enlightenment, and I'm sure there's plenty of that to go around, but to me such rites hold a respect for humanity that's utterly lost in the kinds of opinions on this thread. The theory of evolution already did in any real respect for humanity of course. Just animals, just apes, nothing special, no spirit, no soul, nothing special. Just a bunch of chemicals all crashing around and accidentally coming up with human beings.
Maybe I'm misremembering something from years ago but isn't the Japanese practice of bowing upon meeting someone a gesture of respect for that person's humanity, simply being born human being respected as a very high calling. They must be losing some of that perspective as they are being poisoned by the vulture-food view of humanity through western influences. I don't know anything about Japanese funeral practices but I like the respect implied in that gesture. Then there are the sacred burial grounds of the American Indians. Ancestor worship, superstition, oh probably, but also respect.
Darwin said there's grandeur in the evolutionist view of things. Poor Darwin, poor modern man who has learned to regard himself as dog food.
There is an opinion among some Christians that burial is to be preferred to cremation because we are immortal souls whose bodies will eventually be resurrected and joined with our souls in a new glorified form, so we should preserve the body until that day. Even unbelievers will be reunited with their bodies, though not in glorified form. I don't think it matters as far as the reality of being reunited with your body goes whether you are buried or cremated or burned at the stake. God will know how to put us all back together no matter what condition the body ends up in.
But I do think there's more respect for human beings shown in burial than in cremation. Respect for the human body at least, I guess. Cremation is just so violent and destructive.
Sad that you're all willing to treat yourselves as trash. "Man who is in honor" says the scripture, yet perishes like the beasts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 94 (736361)
09-08-2014 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-08-2014 2:38 AM


In a way it strikes me as odd that someone who believes in an immortal soul should show any reverence to a dead body. That would be exactly like a bunch of atheists solemnly, reverently, and tearfully burying a man's worn out suit of clothes (while the man himself is still alive and well). Is there any difference? To the believing Christian, the dead-body is just so much cast-off fleshy clothing, while the man himself is still alive and indeed in a better place.
And yet your response, being yours, did not strike me as odd, coming from you; I saw that you'd replied to this thread, I knew what you would say: you would defend the traditions and customs of your culture by pretending that they are particularly Christian and all else is atheism and unbelief. It's what you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 2:38 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 94 (736362)
09-08-2014 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
09-08-2014 2:55 AM


I'd suggest that perhaps you misread my post and should reread it, but I don't suppose you'd see things any differently, since as you admit, you knew what I'd say before you read it anyway.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 26 of 94 (736363)
09-08-2014 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-08-2014 2:38 AM


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Over?
Sorry. Faith, but nothing you posted makes any sense. Have you had any children? Have any of them died? If either question is "No", then what the freaking fuck does what you have to say mean anything whatsover?
Since my father was a WWII war veteran (a CPO in the Seabees), he was afforded a burial at sea in the very area where he would sea fish {by the USS George Philip}
.
My own son died by alcohol-and-incident-induced suicide (aided very greatly by his mother's indulgence in providing him a firearm completely against my wishes, just because he wanted one and forbidding me any say in the matter).
Faith, as usual you demonstrate how clueless you are. Please read my previous post and respond to it.
That is to say, respond to my post itself, not to whatever you imagine. If that is at all possible.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 2:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 4:39 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 94 (736364)
09-08-2014 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by dwise1
09-08-2014 4:29 AM


I already read your post and was very touched by it. You've been through a lot and I feel for you. I don't understand what you are so angry about. Nothing I said related to anything in your post, it was prompted by the fertilizer and skeleton type comments as if one's own death can be taken so lightly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 09-08-2014 4:29 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 09-08-2014 5:33 AM Faith has replied
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-08-2014 10:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 28 of 94 (736366)
09-08-2014 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
09-08-2014 4:39 AM


Whisky Tango Foxtrot Over?????
"the fertilizer and skeleton type comments as if one's own death can be taken so lightly."??? What are you talking about?
Here's an evangelical question for you. My son died a non-Christian. For me to accept a Christian theology, I would need to accept that my son, whom I love no less than any father could possibly live his child, was condemned for all eternity to eternal damnation. How could any loving father ever accept such a theology?
I don't understand what you are so angry about.
Do please elucidate om this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 4:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 5:46 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 94 (736367)
09-08-2014 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by dwise1
09-08-2014 5:33 AM


My remarks were completely on a general abstract level, the level of culture, zeitgeist etc., I was not talking about anybody's personal feelings which can be something else entirely.
I've lost both unsaved parents and an unsaved brother among other family members, and I have a daughter who is unsaved and shows no signs of ever becoming a believer, and two grandsons in the same situation. It hurts enormously to think of them as possibly dying unsaved, it's certainly not that I've never thought about such things. I can't decide my theology on my feelings, but my theology is certainly hard on those feelings.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by dwise1, posted 09-08-2014 5:33 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 30 of 94 (736371)
09-08-2014 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-08-2014 2:38 AM


"Sacred burial grounds of the American Indians," as in the racks some of the northern Plains Indians built to ensure that the dead really were reserved for "vulture food" as opposed to, say, coyote food? Really?

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-08-2014 2:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
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