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Author Topic:   Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 32 (736482)
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.
Why then did God favor the guiltiest, Adam, with, --- he shall rule over you?
Men rule over women? Why when men were not deceived but disobeyed?
What was the transgression, --- if not a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom and shun immortality of the flesh, --- even if that were possible, --- and why was Adan not punished as hard as Eve when he was clearly more guilty?
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2014 5:26 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2014 11:16 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 09-10-2014 11:30 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:13 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2014 2:55 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
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Message 2 of 32 (736484)
09-10-2014 5:17 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

  
Omnivorous
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From: Adirondackia
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(1)
Message 3 of 32 (736489)
09-10-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


Because men wrote the book.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
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Message 4 of 32 (736490)
09-10-2014 5:35 PM


It does make some sense.
Eve was deceived by the serpent (i.e. Satan). The serpent was punished for deceiving Eve. If it had stopped there, Eve may have escaped punishment. That is not where it stopped. Even, knowing it was wrong, deceived Adam the way that the serpent had deceived her. That was the transgression because at that point Eve did know better while Adam was still innocent.
Adam got off lucky because there wasn't anyone left to deceive. As the saying goes, the second mouse gets the cheese.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 32 (736491)
09-10-2014 5:39 PM


Another hit-n-run?
Did Adam have to farm? Did Adam fear snakes? How was Adam exempt?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 32 (736514)
09-10-2014 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.
Didn't Eve deceive Adam? I think so. My wife thinks differently.
My wife's take on the story is that Adam was actually present when the snake was talking to Eve, and that Adam was directly charged by God with avoiding the fruit. Adam should have hit the snake on the head with a shovel as soon as the snake opposed God's word.
My own view is that the whole story is an ancient explanation for why men and women have exactly the relative status they had back in the author's day. Eve was punished first because she disobeyed God first. As I tell my wife, we know Eve knew and understood God's rule because she recited it to the snake.
Adam in turn did what Eve told him for pretty much the reasons you can imagine. I don't think there is any point insisting that there was no hanky-panky going on before the snake incident. When God punishes Eve there is no indication that childbirth wss something new. Multiplied pain was what was new.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 7 of 32 (736515)
09-10-2014 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.
And most commentators agree with you about this. Adam was not deceived but sinned consciously. And scripture doesn't let him off the hook. They were both cast out of Eden and from that point on he had to fight nature to grow food, which hadn't been the case before. Adam is also always the one identified as the cause of the sin and its transmission to his descendants: "By one man sin entered the world." He had the authority and therefore the responsibility, besides also the greater sin because he wasn't deceived.
Eve's punishment seems to have been a perversion of her original subordinate role, which was not a liability until the Fall, after which she was subjugated rather than merely subordinate. The subjugation of women by men has been pretty apparent in all cultures, and contrary to the idea on another thread here that it's "religion" that is the cause of it, in fact Jesus Himself liberated women to a great extent and that became the basis over time for women's greater freedoms in the west.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 32 (736592)
09-11-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


Greatest I am writes:
I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.
Why then did God favor the guiltiest, Adam, with, --- he shall rule over you?
Apparently God didn't agree with our opinion. Either He thought that Adam was not the guiltiest or that ruling over Eve was no favour.

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 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2014 4:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 9 of 32 (736623)
09-11-2014 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Why then did God favor the guiltiest, Adam, with, --- he shall rule over you?
Im gonna venture a guess it was because the authors of Genesis had penises.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 32 (736815)
09-13-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taq
09-10-2014 5:35 PM


Tag
You have a point but if the talking serpent or Satan deceived Eve it was because God put it there to do just that. She could not fight the supernatural power that God used against he either through the snake or Satan.
And further, after she ate she had both our human instincts as well as all the knowledge of good and evil, which is more like all the knowledge that can be known, as most everything is subject to good and evil, so she may have done the right thing. Right?
Why leave Adam as bright as a brick?
Regards
DL

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 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2014 9:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 32 (736817)
09-13-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
09-10-2014 5:26 PM


Omnivorous
Perhaps but I hope it is a more complicated reason than male ego.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 32 (736818)
09-13-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
09-10-2014 5:39 PM


Re: Another hit-n-run?
Jar
He was exempt from the transgression according to that quote.
I do not know the how. I am asking the why?
I do not like the way it is written because it sort of indicates that the transgression was being deceived and not the disobedience.
I am French and you English might be able to straighten me out.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 13 of 32 (736819)
09-13-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
09-10-2014 11:16 PM


NoNukes
Interesting take but the quote I put shows that Eve did not disobey and Adam did. Eve was deceived ad I guess that is forgiven. That's why I think she got the raw end of the deal.
If two people rob a bank, the judge does not care who went in first.
Your sexual reference is not biblical and I ignore it.
Regards
DL

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Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 32 (736822)
09-13-2014 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
09-10-2014 11:30 PM


Faith
The West does give women more equality than the East but we still have a long way to go till women have full equality.
I agree that religious men are not the only one's to blame for women's oppression and that all societies are. But do not forget that the majority rules and the majority has been men in the Abrahamic religion in the West and Middle East.
----------------
That was an interesting quote you gave.
"By one man sin entered the world."
Please compare it to this one and opine on which is wrong, mine or yours.
Ecclesiasticus Chapter 25;24 Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.
""He had the authority and therefore the responsibility, besides also the greater sin because he wasn't deceived."
I agree and stated that so why was he given the lesser punishment and rewarded with dominion over Eve?
And why did God stupidly put Satan or a supernatural talking snake right there where Eve was?
I have heard it was to test them but that would be stupid for an God to do when he already knows the outcome to everything.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 15 of 32 (736825)
09-13-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
09-11-2014 1:13 PM


ringo
I do not care what God agrees with. I do care that you might agree given the story.
I think Adam more culpable. Do you agree or not?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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