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Author Topic:   The Search for Moderate Islam
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 16 of 432 (736925)
09-14-2014 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
09-14-2014 6:44 PM


Re: fanatics are fanatics no matter what brand of religion is used
RAZD -- good points.
But one thing that must also be considered is how intolerant many Muslims are of those who don't believe as they do.
We have seen a number of examples in this country. Recently a Muslim group demanded a restaurant remove a picture of bacon from their sign. We have Muslim taxicab drivers who don't want to transport dogs or customers with alcohol.
In England and Germany we have areas patrolled by the Sharia police. Dress or act the wrong way and you're liable to be beaten.
It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 09-14-2014 6:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 09-14-2014 9:16 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 09-14-2014 9:56 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 09-15-2014 5:56 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 23 of 432 (736944)
09-14-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
09-14-2014 9:56 PM


Re: fanatics are fanatics no matter what brand of religion is used
Perhaps you should check out what is happening a bit more.
You seem to be dismissing an issue, as many people do, that is perhaps a bit more involved than you realize.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 09-14-2014 9:56 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 09-15-2014 7:46 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 53 of 432 (737032)
09-16-2014 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taq
09-15-2014 5:56 PM


Re: fanatics are fanatics no matter what brand of religion is used
It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples.
That's true of any religious group, including christians. Try living in communities that are dominated by Mormons.
I find it hard to believe that you are comparing Muslims to Mormons. Maybe you better bring in all those Amish terrorists while you're at it.
I don't know if you are excusing Muslims or condemning Mormons with your comment. But if you really think the two are equivalent, then there is no point in discussing this with you.
Last I heard, Mormons don't send out patrols within their enclaves to enforce their desires with beatings, as is happening in many countries.
I suspect that many Americans would not put up with it--and rightly so.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 09-15-2014 5:56 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 7:36 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 76 of 432 (737082)
09-16-2014 6:55 PM


Link to article
http://www.americanthinker.com/...ious_moderate_muslim_.html

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 7:30 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 78 of 432 (737085)
09-16-2014 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Modulous
09-16-2014 7:30 PM


Re: Link to article
With a billion plus Muslims, even a small percentage of headchoppers and other extremists is a lot. Too many in fact.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 7:30 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 10:08 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 80 of 432 (737088)
09-16-2014 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Modulous
09-16-2014 10:08 PM


Re: Link to article
The best I can make out of it is that you are saying there are moderate Muslims. Is that what you are saying?
When Muslims take over your town and tell you to convert, pay tribute, or die, get back to me.
If you can.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 10:08 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Modulous, posted 09-16-2014 10:18 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 91 of 432 (737152)
09-17-2014 10:30 PM


Another link that addresses this question
http://www.samharris.org/...m/sleepwalking-toward-armageddon

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 09-18-2014 12:05 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 105 of 432 (737189)
09-18-2014 11:50 PM


Islam is far more in need of an Enlightenment than a Reformation.
But when the crazies kill anyone who isn't crazy enough, the moderates will tend to either keep very quiet or play along.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by dronestar, posted 09-19-2014 3:25 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 139 of 432 (737325)
09-22-2014 1:15 PM


Bah!
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia :: Gatestone Institute
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia
Although Indonesia, "the world's largest Muslim country" with an 87% Muslim population, was once considered a moderate Muslim country, day by day it has been leaning more and more towards conservative Islam and Sharia laws. Initiated in 2009, bylaws in the light of Sharia rulings were implemented that conflict with the values of human rights, and are creating a difficult land for minorities to live in.
Indonesian Aceh province authorities recently launched an initiative, despite opposition from human rights activists, to ban women from straddling motorcycles when riding behind a man. Suaidi Yahia, mayor of Lhokseumawe, the second large city of the province, said to the Associated Press, "It is improper for women to sit astride. We implement Islamic law here." He later said, "women sitting on motorbikes must not sit astride: it will provoke the male drivers." Instead, they allow women to sit sidesaddle, which is dangerous on a motorcycle.
The objectives of the local authorities were apparently to prevent "showing a woman's curves;" it is against Islamic teachings, Yahia went on to say, unless it is an emergency. In a notice distributed to the government offices and villages of northern Aceh, they added that women are not allowed to hold onto the driver.
Last year, the mayor of Tasikmalaya in West Java proposed to veil all women, including non-Muslims. Mayor Syarif Hidayat vowed to implement Sharia law, to repay Muslim leaders who backed his election victory. The President of Indonesia, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who is serving his second term, also relies on the support of Muslim political parties.
Sharia law is spreading throughout all of the provinces of Indonesia; citizens are enacting their own variations of Islamic laws, and applying them to non-Muslims as well.
More
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 2:05 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 142 of 432 (737338)
09-22-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Modulous
09-22-2014 2:05 PM


Re: Bah!
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.
Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote.
Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for.
Possibly off topic, but I doubt it. As for "illogical" -- no logic required: facts are facts.
--Has Last Christian Left Iraqi City of Mosul After 2,000 Years?
http://www.nbcnews.com/...aqi-city-mosul-after-2-000-n164856
--ISIL's Persecution of Religious Minorities in Iraq and Syria
We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State
--Homosexuals would be killed in ideal world, says speaker at society event
Page not found - The Mancunion
I could provide a lot more examples. Perhaps you should wake up and look around you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 2:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 3:54 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 146 of 432 (737376)
09-22-2014 10:31 PM


Islamic State's taunting speech calls for killing civilians
The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians.
The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians.
more

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 147 of 432 (737424)
09-23-2014 5:59 PM


It’s Time to Take the Islamic State Seriously
It’s Time to Take the Islamic State Seriously

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Jon, posted 09-23-2014 7:43 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 150 of 432 (737649)
09-27-2014 10:43 PM


The religion of peace at it again
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave'
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave'
Christians in the Nineveh region of northern Iraq are unable to celebrate communion for the first time in two millennia, after Islamic State militants captured the area and took over the churches.
Canon Andrew White, vicar of the only Anglican church in Iraq, told the Telegraph that Isil have set up offices in the churches and have replaced crosses with the militant group's black flag.
"Last week there was no communion in Nineveh for the first time in 2,000 years," he said. "All [the churches] are closed, all their people have run away. It is so sad."
more

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 152 of 432 (746444)
01-06-2015 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
01-06-2015 8:54 PM


Re: Yes, Moderate Muslims Do Condemn Terrorism. A Lot.
Perhaps the problem is that there is insufficient condemnation of terrorism within the overall Muslim world.
When there is an act of terrorism what we see instead is cheering in the streets and the passing out of candies.
Or perhaps it is that there are far too few moderates?
In any event, the vast majority of terrorism worldwide can be attributed to Muslims and until that changes I'm not too impressed by a few ineffective condemnations from a few moderates.
Let's see some results and maybe then I'll be impressed.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-06-2015 8:54 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 01-06-2015 10:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 154 of 432 (746448)
01-06-2015 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
01-06-2015 10:18 PM


Re: maybe if we stop over reacting
But have there been any acts of Islamic terrorism that were a real threat to the US?
I'd call the 9/11 attacks a real threat. The two WTCs, the Pentagon, and the White House. As well as one other which didn't get off the ground.
Do you have some good reason why you'd want to minimize those attacks as not being a real threat?
This I've got to hear!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 01-06-2015 10:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 01-06-2015 10:51 PM Coyote has replied

  
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