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Author Topic:   The Search for Moderate Islam
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 432 (736863)
09-14-2014 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by vimesey
09-14-2014 2:13 AM


Not sure what Jon means...
Have a look at their recent press releases, condemning IS atrocities.
Surely this cannot be the standard Jon is using to judge whether Muslims are moderate. Because it is nearly impossible to construct a search that won't find articles accusing Muslims of not opposing IS answered by identifications of Muslims doing exactly that. Simply typing Muslim and 'ISIS' into a web browser turns up plenty of condemnations of IS by Muslims.
Perhaps he is noting that Muslims tend to be socially conservative or that they tend not to believe in evolution. Perhaps he cannot find many Muslim atheists. But it is equally difficult to find Methodist atheists. But surely he cannot be talking about condemnations of ISIS.
I wonder what happens when the words moderate muslim are typed into a Google search edit box. Nope, that does not manage to avoid anything.
I recall an earlier discussion covering some of this ground. Evil Muslim conspiracy....
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by vimesey, posted 09-14-2014 2:13 AM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 432 (736876)
09-14-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
09-14-2014 10:55 AM


NoNukes brushed over the difference between a Muslim (a single person) and Islam (a religion) when he suggested googling "moderate Muslim", but, of course, that's not what this thread is about.
This isn't a search for moderate Muslims; this is a search for moderate Islam.
Where is it?
If you look at the search results even for moderate muslims, what you will find is Muslims explaining that their religion does not tell them to do what IS is doing. The results will include Islamic leaders explaining such things. Exactly what searches did you conduct?
As has been noted in past discussions, the Bible also contains passages instructing the commission of genocide.
Do we suppose that if Islam did not exist, that the people who chop off heads would not find SOME OTHER JUSTIFICATION in their hearts, for chopping off those heads?"
By and large, they are the latter.
Do we really need to describe how easy it is to find people who practice the religion and who do not cut off heads and are actually appalled by such things? There are over a billion people in the world practicing this religion. Maybe a half million or so practice the religion in this country.
ABE:
From Wikipedia
quote:
An adherent of Islam is called a Muslim.
Just what are you arguing here?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : replace "churches" with discussions.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 09-14-2014 10:55 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 09-14-2014 9:33 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 432 (736943)
09-14-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
09-14-2014 9:33 PM


Re: What IS Moderate Islam?
The Islamic faith is clearly in crisis and as far as can be observed, Muslims everywhere are eerily silent on the matter.
Why?
I don't believe what you say is true in the least. Tell me about how and where you searched.
Where are the Muslim communities that speak out, not just against violence, but against the passages in their holy book that call for the death of non-believers?
Do you require the same thing of moderate Christians?
Moderate muslims say that the radicals are misrepresnting Islam. Before you give the radicals the high road, show me that the moderates are wrong.
I'm trying to find a form of Islam that is moderate.
Look at the form followed by moderate Muslims. Muslims are by definition Islamists.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 09-14-2014 9:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 09-15-2014 8:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 432 (736990)
09-15-2014 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
09-15-2014 12:36 PM


Re: What IS Moderate Islam?
I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation?
Are you confident that you know the contents of the Koran well enough to say that? I would appreciate a demonstration.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2014 12:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2014 2:35 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 432 (736992)
09-15-2014 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
09-15-2014 8:54 AM


Re: What IS Moderate Islam?
I searched.
Please describe your search. Other people are finding what you did not. Easily.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 09-15-2014 8:54 AM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 432 (737057)
09-16-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
09-15-2014 2:35 PM


Re: What IS Moderate Islam?
I think so.
Where are the parts that teach moderation?
I'm asking you to demonstrate your knowledge that there are no moderate parts, and your response is to ask me to do it?
My point is that you are no more familiar with the text than any one else, yet you feel free to make blanket statements about what is not to be found. Based on what? Where does your opinion of the content come from?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2014 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 432 (737072)
09-16-2014 3:54 PM


One thing I have noticed when searching for moderate interpretations of the Quran, is that for every one source I locate, I find about five to ten sources claiming the opposite some of which purport to directly answer the moderates.
I've also seen that same phenomena when doing searches in the Creation v. Evolution debate. Some searches are dominated by the writings of creationists.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 432 (746591)
01-08-2015 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
01-08-2015 9:48 AM


Re: PC?
What would the PC position be for al Jazeera?
When your world view is that every Muslim wants to cut off a Yankee's head, then PC means pointing to or pretending to be a Muslim who pretends not to want that.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 01-08-2015 9:48 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 432 (746816)
01-09-2015 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Coyote
01-09-2015 9:17 PM


You keep posting on the moderates, I'll keep posting on the extremists.
When the extremists can dominate the moderates, they don't really count, do they?
Then we'll count up your posts and whoever makes the most posts wins? Cool. It's about time we had a definitive result to one of these thread.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Coyote, posted 01-09-2015 9:17 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 306 of 432 (747648)
01-17-2015 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Jon
01-17-2015 9:06 AM


Re: cults and the fear driven conservative mind
Since the men in question were not Muslim, the whole thing is irrelevant.
It's way too simplistic to insist that discussions not involving Muslims are irrelevant.
Some people are making simplistic arguments which can be rebutted by showing that one would not make those same arguments in other similar situations.
We can consider the non-muslim discussion to be a lemma in the process of addressing the topic.
I agree that it should not be necessary to show that moderate Islam is what moderate Islamist practice. But apparently insisting that such is not the case allows winning this thread to have some purpose when otherwise we'd see that it is based on a silly premise.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Jon, posted 01-17-2015 9:06 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by jar, posted 01-17-2015 6:13 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 309 by Jon, posted 01-17-2015 6:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 322 of 432 (747925)
01-21-2015 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Coyote
01-20-2015 8:19 PM


Re: Bring in the moderates!
We get it, Coyote. Islamic State is not a moderate group.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Coyote, posted 01-20-2015 8:19 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 324 of 432 (747941)
01-21-2015 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Theodoric
01-21-2015 8:12 AM


Re: Bring in the moderates!
You continue to derail the topic. I am sure Jon loves your continuing derailment, but derailment it is
About derailing...
After jar's excellent summary, there does not seem to be much of a topic for most of us.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Theodoric, posted 01-21-2015 8:12 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-21-2015 10:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 350 of 432 (749198)
02-02-2015 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
02-02-2015 2:12 PM


Re: The reception moderate(?) Islam sometimes gets
But what do you mean "letting people have their 1st Amendment Rights?" The government invited the Muslims and made a special pro-Islam day of it. This is as much as replacing Christianity in American life with Islam.
I don't understand this position. How is one group's worship, right or wrong, displacing Christianity? Would you say the same thing if a Jewish group were invited for a pro-Israel day?
But yes, if you believe the very existence of Islamist worshiping or being invited to worship is replacing Christianity in American life, it is easy to understand why you see threats all around.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 2:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 423 of 432 (756000)
04-14-2015 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Jon
04-14-2015 11:12 AM


Re: The Un-un-Islamic Islamic State
What is the purpose of saying the Islamic State is not Islamic?
Is Muhammad really worth lying for?
People who hold different view points than you do are not lying when they speak those views. I know you are sure that you are right, but at least in your zeal leave open the possibility that you are simply smarter or more likely correct than some other people. Perhaps that's difficult for you?
Many people suggest that the Westboro church is not Christian when they do things like picket military funerals that most Christians do not do. Maybe it is not clear that such a limited use of the term Christian is wrong. But I think most people would not take the further step to equate the Westboro Church with Christianity itself even if there are some Bible verses that can be used to justify what the Westboro church does.
I take Obama's remarks to be equivalent to saying that Christian Extremists like the Westboro Church may indeed be Christians but they are not Christianity and their remarks should not tar other Christians who don't adopt the same philosophy and means.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Jon, posted 04-14-2015 11:12 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by Jon, posted 04-14-2015 4:30 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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