The Search for Moderate Islam

Roman Catholicism did the violent murderous things you say, but not Christianity, not to say they didn't make similar errors at times, though nowhere near that scale. With Catholicism and with Islam they are not errors though, the murders are intrinsic to their belief system.And as for "complaining" about atheist influence, my whole point was that atheists ALSO work to impose their will on the rest of us since Taq said that's what religions do. You could recognize the context and stick to the point but you'd rather complain about my Protestant beliefs of course.And my further point was that method also matters since Islam murders people to impose its will, which is not the method of the other religions named, though that too is not something you'd like to recognize, is it?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This thread really isn't about Christianity or Buddhism or Judaism or Bahaism or...It's one thing to bring up comparisons to familiar things for clarity's sake. But I really don't think all this bickering about which religion or group of people is the 'worst' is really on topic.We're looking for moderate Islam: a way to define it and places to find it.The topic is really quite narrow.Thanks you!Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

It wasn't just Catholics that were guilty of performing violent acts. Last time I checked, Protestants in New England were responsible for the Salem Witch Trials. Can I please have an example of this? What law and/or judgement was recently passed that allowed atheists to 'impose' their will on others? Most of the desert dogma religions, i.e. Christianity, Judaism and Islam have all had violent pasts with imposition of their beliefs on others. Religion's key motive is to maximize its followers, which naturally will lead to situations where force is leveraged to ensure the maximum number of believers.

You were asking for moderate versions of Islam. What does 'moderate version' of a religion mean? This can only be answered by comparison. Sorry, but you basically started it. Look up the Aquidah, maybe something in there will resemble something you are looking for. Also the Five Pillars and Six Articles of Faith. Although this does not seem to remotely related to your original request about moderate Islam, I wish you the best of luck learning about Islam. Moderate Islam is what Moderate Muslims practice. Showing you moderate Muslims is therefore sufficient to prove the existence of moderate Islam. Even if their religion is utterly inconsistent with ancient religious texts and there is no textual support for any of it - that would still be true. Moderate Islam exists in the minds of the Moderate Muslims. I don't know their theological rationalizations and textual support for all of it, I'm afraid (and much of it only exists in other languages in printed form in any event), but to deny it exists is just pretty foolish. What did your local Imam say when you asked him?That you think asking western cultural Christians for references to texts that meet your requirements is a sensible research tactic, causes me to think I've found another flaw in your methods.Anyway, I've shown you moderate Muslims who practice moderate Islam.
I've posted text from the Hadith that may be considered moderate (the Golden Rule).
And now you want me to find something sufficiently close to the Catholic Catechism?
Are your demands going to become ever more ludicrous?

OK, so we agree that Christians committed atrocities to get their religion spread. Yes, attempting to change the world around us is what people do. Not unique to Islam. Islam spread through murder, war mayhem and so on. Just like Christianity. I'm perfectly happy to recognize this. But we're talking about moderate Islam here. Murder to impose one's will doesn't seem very moderate so why are you talking about it if it isn't just to take cheap shots at one of your bogeymen?

Protestants have also committed violent and deadly atrocities against Anabaptists, Catholics (including in 1800's Philadelphia), Mormons, and many other religious minorities. And don't forget the actions of "Divine Right of Kings" despots, such as King James who was a major proponent of that principle, whose actions could not be questioned nor held in check in any manner -- at least when the Catholic Church still held some real political power the Pope could and often did rein in despots, but without that check and balance "Divine Right of Kings" despots could do whatever they wanted and not have to answer to anybody, especially since God would never tell them that he disagreed with what they were doing.The murders are intrinsic to their belief system.

I'm asking you to demonstrate your knowledge that there are no moderate parts, and your response is to ask me to do it?My point is that you are no more familiar with the text than any one else, yet you feel free to make blanket statements about what is not to be found. Based on what? Where does your opinion of the content come from?

You can't assess comparatives in a vacuum. What does "fast" mean? Faster than walking? Faster than a speeding bullet? The idea that a Corvette is "fast" only has meaning in comparison with something else in the same ballpark, like a Ferrari.Similarly, you can't just talk about whether Islam is "moderate". Is it less moderate than Christianity? Is it more moderate than it used to be centuries ago? Is it about as moderate as corn flakes?You need some frame of reference. And the most sensible frame of reference for a religion is other religions.

How do you define moderation in one religion except by comparison to other religions? An elephant is big in comparison to most animals but is it "big" in and of itself?Edited by ringo, : pelling.

Anyone is free to participate on this forum; you know that. I would be thrilled for some input from Muslims.But I would think that were moderate Islam an accessible realityi.e., it exists and can be easily researchedthat anyone should be able to figure out what it is and where it is practiced. If the Golden Rule is the defining characteristic of Islam, then I suppose we are all MuslimsChristians, Jews, and atheists alike.But let's be honest; this is not the defining characteristic of Islam. It doesn't adequately define the beliefs of the religion's followers; it does not account for their behaviors; it does not distinguish Muslims from non-Muslims. The Nicene Creed sufficiently defines the beliefs of the religion's followers, accounts for their principle behaviors (holidays, etc.), and distinguishes Christians from non-Christians. It isn't the be-all-and-end-all of Christianity; but it's a good start to understanding the religion, and it captures the essential tenets required of believers. The Six Articles are a joke. They don't even include the typical Islamic mantra declaring Muhammad a prophet of Allah:

quote:

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Six Articles of Faith according to Masjid al-Muslimiin:

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Belief in God
Belief in His Angels
Belief in His Books
Belief in His Prophets and Messengers
Belief in the Day of Judgment
Belief in God’s Divine Decree

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What Christian would disagree with these statements? How can these Articles define Islam when they cannot even distinguish it from other belief systems?The Five Pillars are also somewhat lacking in their explanatory power. They don't seem to account for a number of Muslim practices, moderate or otherwise, such as the veiling of women. What are its essential characteristics? What is the minimum one must do to be a Muslim?Again, to clarify; such a list should define the basic beliefs; account for behavior; and distinguish followers from non-followers. My demands have not changed even if your understanding of them has.

This is nonsense.Prayers have not been removed from the public schools.What it took, was a small number of loud mouthed lying fundamentalist Christians to spread the false claim that prayers have been excluded from the school.What a few atheists and many sensible Christians did, was remind us what the US constitution says (the non-establishment clause of the first amendment). At the time I was an evangelical Christian and I supported that court decision as good for Christianity.

So your method of investigating a different culture is to hang around in your own? Yeah.I have invited Muslims to this place, and one of them almost did as he was particularly interested in evolution. Well - seems you were wrong. Par for the course. You could try learning Turkish, Farsi or Indonesian - then you'd have a more direct access to the culture. No shit Sherlock. We aren't defining Islam here, we're talking about moderate Islam, remember. It was a verse that could be seen as moderate, which is why it was brought up. Awesome. What has that to do with moderate religion? That's because it is the first Pillar of Islam. They aren't explanations, they are pillars of Islam. You're welcome. Oh you actually ignored my primary suggestion and just looked at the supplementary stuff. I guess short lists are just easier to read or something. Believe that Allah is the one God. That Muhammed is His Prophet.
Pray 5 times in a certain way.
Give 2.5% to the poor
Fast during Ramadan
Take part in the pilgrimage at some pointThat's the minimum. You may have come across this list of five 'colonnades' before. Again, why is this part of this discussion? Ah - so you have in fact been looking for a singular document that describes Islam succinctly, poetically but descriptively and not, you know, searching for Moderate Islam as I had foolishly thought? Maybe you should edit the Title. And the OP. And all of your posts up to Message 60. I seem to remember you were asking for 'the community meetings. Show me the demonstrations in the street; the parades for peace.' You also asked about interpretations of individual verses, but never gave any specific examples to discuss, so...

Good.But isn't there more? I saw it all. But none of it answers the question completely. The Nicene Creed was given as an example of the kind of belief statement that might define a religion or a sect within that religion. It is not essential that only things regarded specifically as Creeds be included.After all, there is still something missing. We might as well include all that we can. There are plenty of ways for the question to be answered. There are many things that might satisfy the search for moderate Islam.Unfortunately, we've not seen a satisfying number of those things in this thread.There is an elephant in this room regarding Islamic practice that absolutely must be addressed by anyone attempting to demonstrate the existence of a moderate Islam.I think we all know what it is...Let's address it!

One thing I have noticed when searching for moderate interpretations of the Quran, is that for every one source I locate, I find about five to ten sources claiming the opposite some of which purport to directly answer the moderates.I've also seen that same phenomena when doing searches in the Creation v. Evolution debate. Some searches are dominated by the writings of creationists.

ghIs goalpost moving just how you play it where you come from? You said, " What is the minimum one must do to be a Muslim? " Now you want more than the minimum? If things such as the Hadith of Gabriel is insufficient then it appears whatever you are looking for does not exist. Sorry. Hey, maybe you've learned that different religions do things differently and different cultures have different needs and satisfy those needs in different ways though. So that's a plus right?What next, how about we discuss moderate Islam? Well it's difficult to find many statements about shared beliefs and practices of a religious group that is not a creed. Because that's what creeds are. I've given you an example of a moderate verse, and many examples of moderate Islam 'in situ'. I've offered to consider particular 'problem' verses (for moderates) and how moderates deal with them. What's the next category of evidence you want me to present? I have no idea what you are talking about.