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Author Topic:   Black Holes Don't Exist
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 174 (737687)
09-28-2014 1:20 PM


Is this new research consistent with a quiet black hole, which is evidently the state of the Milky Way's black hole?

Million solar mass black holes might still be consistent.

As I understand it, the analysis applies to the process of stellar collapse after a supernova, and is a prediction that too much energy escapes during collapse to leave a true black hole.

I would not think that the results would apply to the formation of a large black hole by the coalescing of large numbers of neutron stars and grey holes if that is indeed what supernova produce.

The other issue is that the results seem to me to be inconsistent with observation. Black holes are confirmed by making estimates of the mass of collapsed objects. Surely any produced radiation has escaped and is not part of the estimate.

What could a 5 solar mass, non-radiating object be if it is not a black hole?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 174 (737696)
09-28-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
09-28-2014 12:56 PM


As for the Milky Way -- there's lots of gravity, but that's not enough to be sure that there's a black hole.

Lot's of gravity from a small non-radiating region should be enough. And if that description cannot be verified to apply to the Milky-way, it does appear to apply to other galaxies. What could such a region be if not a black hole?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 09-28-2014 12:56 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 174 (741432)
11-12-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Colbard
11-12-2014 8:42 AM


Re: Mass and gravity
...and secondly when you break the structure of the atom you lose its mass.

Total and complete crap. We know this not to be true from observation. Atoms are composed of protons, neutrons and electrons. In some cases those particles actually have more total mass after they've been separated then when they are assembled.

For example helium atoms are lighter than the combined weight of two protons and two neutrons.

There is no such thing as collapsing matter down into a smaller unit than itself

What does a 'smaller unit than itself' mean.

Matter is a weaving of two forces which give it certain time to and a certain space to exist.

What two forces?

In fact the forces that reside and flow through matter are hundreds of thousands of times more powerful than matter.

Forces are measured in newtons. How do you make a comparison between those forces and matter?

Maybe Son Goku can make lemonade out of this urine, but I cannot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 8:42 AM Colbard has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 174 (741444)
11-12-2014 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by PaulK
11-12-2014 8:24 AM


Re: Mass and gravity thing
Assuming that the density is uniform the effect of increased gravitational force applies everywhere except the exact centre.

I may have missed some limitation on 'everywhere', but absent some limitation, your statement is wrong. It would violate Gauss' law.

For a shrinking spherical object, the gravitational field outside of the original surface remains unchanged during the shrinking.

Within the surface of a sphere, the gravitation field on an object within the surface is determined by the matter closer to the center than the object. The gravitation field exerted by the material outside of this radius cancels out exactly.

Results in zero gravity at the center exactly as you said. As the sphere shrinks, distances at a given radius within the surface does increase because more of the mass is inside that radius. Except at the center.

But if you move away from the centre the net force towards the centre would be stronger in the denser sphere, at any given distance from the centre.

No. Only for distances inside of the original surface of the sphere. I would further add, that most people would not be making a comparison to points inside of that original surface because those points are generally inaccessible.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 8:24 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 11:22 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 50 of 174 (741457)
11-12-2014 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
11-12-2014 11:20 AM


Re: Mass and gravity
The available evidence says that mass is responsible for gravity by bending space-time.

Does it?

I didn't take much issue with Collard saying that he does not believe mass is responsible because it is not really necessary to believe that to accept the predictions of General Relativity. Einstein's equations allow us to predict motion in a gravitational field using those concepts, but one might reasonably ask if our interpretation of the equations actually matches reality.

As an analogy, Newton's gravity equation presents a completely different model that works extremely well. Yet we accept that that two masses do not actually attract each other as Newton predicted.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 11-12-2014 11:20 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 174 (741842)
11-14-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Colbard
11-13-2014 6:12 AM


Re: QM
...but disagree with separate packages of energy.
I think of those packages as peaks in a continuous wave, where the troughs are the gaps between the packages.

How are these two statements not contradictory. You don't accept separate packages of energy, but you do believe in separated packages of energy?

When one of those packages interacts with matter (for example during the photo electric effect, what happens to the remaining packages?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Colbard, posted 11-13-2014 6:12 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:25 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 174 (741880)
11-15-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:25 AM


Re: QM
Nonukes the Naive writes:

How are these two statements not contradictory. You don't accept separate packages of energy, but you do believe in separated packages of energy?

When one of those packages interacts with matter (for example during the photo electric effect, what happens to the remaining packages?

Colbard writes:

The background force has two characteristics one which causes energy to be stored or not revealed the other which causes energy to be released or expressed....

None of this gibberish is remotely close to being an answer to either of my questions.

That's not your fault. It's mine. I know better than to expect any sense from you, so I guess I asked for what I got.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:25 AM Colbard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:25 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 174 (742213)
11-18-2014 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by zaius137
11-18-2014 2:00 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Also, a theory must be disprovable,

Not exactly. A theory must be falsifiable, which means that there are some possible experiments which could fail and disprove the theory. But once those experiments are performed, the theory will not be falsified or disproved in that way. But that does not mean that the theory stops being a theory just because we've done all of the experiments we can think of.

By the way the point of this thread about black holes seems to imply that the major source of black holes in the universe is shown to be wrong by QM. That alone goes against observation in astronomy.

Is the mathematics under discussion really mature enough to favor it over observation?

It seems that your mode of addressing science is one of desperation. Any nook and cranny of doubt is an avenue of hope that some contrary version informed by your 'world view' is correct. You are on record here as saying that the Higgs boson will not be found and apparently it must not be found. That causes you to favor weak arguments that it does not exist over strong arguments and evidence that it does.

I don't begrudge you your worldview. It's what makes discussion here interesting.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by zaius137, posted 11-18-2014 2:00 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 11-18-2014 6:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 174 (742214)
11-18-2014 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by zaius137
11-18-2014 2:00 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
Look, I have no doubt that some sort of assumptions and mathematical patches could be presented in every case. The problem I encounter is that the basic assumption of particle/field for the Higgs is difficult to swallow (no observable particle and a scalar field)

How is the Higgs boson a patch?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by zaius137, posted 11-18-2014 2:00 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 174 (742223)
11-18-2014 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Percy
11-18-2014 6:38 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
I'm not sure I followed this correctly. I think you're saying that a successful falsification experiment doesn't falsify a theory nor mean that it is no longer a theory, because of what might be learned from future experiments.

That's almost what I was saying. A theory is falsifiable because there are tests that it can pass or fail. But even if we complete those tests and find that the theory is confirmed, those same tests can still be used to show that the theory is falsifiable. I see that I was not clear that the test we are using to define falsifiability were passed.

Zaius137 comment implies that a theory must be 'unprovable' in some new realm. That's not necessarily true.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Percy, posted 11-18-2014 6:38 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by zaius137, posted 11-18-2014 1:15 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 174 (742401)
11-19-2014 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by zaius137
11-19-2014 1:51 PM


Re: QFT does not explain BH, only BS.
Here, we report the combination of these two channels, which results in strong evidence for the direct coupling of the 125 GeV Higgs boson to down-type fermions, with an observed significance of 3.8 standard deviations, when 4.4 are expected.

What exactly is your criticism, zaius137 Surely you don't think the 3.8 vs 4.4 represents some kind of discrepancy? Further, your post completely fails as a response to Son Goku's request for a reason for "that you think bet random events being more statistically significant."

So exactly what is your point? Because it appears that you really don't have either a clue or a point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by zaius137, posted 11-19-2014 1:51 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 174 (742500)
11-20-2014 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Son Goku
11-20-2014 2:43 PM


Re: Reminding Son of what's already been explained
Seriously, why do you think this. I have given you the paper, explained the method twice, explained the theoretical background three times and you still keep repeating this. What problem do you have with the paper I linked to which calculates the correct answer? Why do you think this issue is unsolved?

It's like deja vu, all over again. attributed to Yogi Berra.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Son Goku, posted 11-20-2014 2:43 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 174 (742747)
11-23-2014 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by zaius137
11-23-2014 9:09 PM


Re: Reminding Zaius of what's already been explained
In general, physics that do not involve gravity disregard the absolute energy of a system, only energy involving differences between states is considered. If a Constant is added to all the energy values, it can later cancel out of the calculations and be disregarded (please excuse the simple analysis). All this is saying is that calculations that do not consider gravity (non GR) do not consider curvature of space time by vacuum energy (additions to the stress energy tensor).

All this is saying is that calculations that do not consider gravity (non GR) do not consider curvature of space time by vacuum energy (additions to the stress energy tensor)

And yet even without taking into account any addition to the space time energy tensor at all, GR readily models gravity within the solar system. Surely something is completely wrong with your thinking.

The only reason for adding vacuum energy is to explain the increasing rate of expansion of the universe. The constant plays no role even in explaining the rotation rates of galaxies. None at all.

So physics like QFT, that do not consider gravity, can cancel out aspects of vacuum energy, but they are not considering the vacuum energy contribution to space curvature. They can avoid the vacuum catastrophe all together but do not reflect space time accurately.

What does not follow from your reasoning is that QFT is inaccurate in its description of physics. And in fact, the issue is one on which we've repeatedly asked you to explain yourself. The correct calculation of zero point energy indeed does involve avoid a vacuum catastrophe and has been argued to be consistent with Lambda. So what is the issue?

You can not just add all the calculated vacuum contributions and come up with a answer… this is the vacuum catastrophe.

Totally BS. The value used in Einstein's equation is derived from observation, but the number calculated from particle physics is not. If the two values are consistent, then there is no issue. You don't seem to have any way to argue that Son Goku is wrong on this issue other than your own personal incredulity.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by zaius137, posted 11-23-2014 9:09 PM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 174 (742748)
11-24-2014 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by zaius137
11-23-2014 9:09 PM


Re: Reminding Zaius of what's already been explained
Nothing but fancier math has changed. There is still a rift in calculations between Standard Model and Relativity (although I acknowledge there is cross-work in this area). Fine tuning is still a problem though. I believe my last conversation with Son was on the topic of normalization in regards to QFT calculations. I am only a layperson trying to rake it all in all the info, this is apparently Son’s field. But I do not accept his supposed solutions to the vacuum catastrophe, as most true authorities in the field are in agreement.

I've been giving this issue some thought since my last posting. (Not the fine tuning part which is a topic in itself, but the normalization topic).

The bulk of the references I can find online dealing with the vacuum catastrophe describe a problem, with some presenting solutions and not much agreement that the solutions are satisfactory. There also is not much critique of the solutions on line.

The real objection I have is to your statement of the impact of the issue. To wit

1. Dark energy has nothing to do with issues surrounding rotational energy in galaxies or any of the other problems that are resolved with dark matter. I'm not sure what causes you to conflate those issues.

2. You complain about a missing effect of space curvature on What is the magnitude of the effect would you expect space time curvature to have on particle physics anyway? Is there some evidence that you can point to that would cause us to wonder about that? As an argument that it should not, let's consider that dark energy has essentially no local effect that we can measure within our own solar system. Planets behave at something very close to Newtonian mechanics, (i.e. minor deviations as predicted by GR without any Lambda. )

I am only a layperson trying to rake it all in all the info, this is apparently Son’s field. But I do not accept his supposed solutions to the vacuum catastrophe, as most true authorities in the field are in agreement.

With regard to this point, let me suggest that a better critique of the idea that the problem is unsolved is a modern rejection of the solution and not decade old papers written by 'true authorities' who hadn't not seen the solutions. An honest review is that there simply isn't enough stuff within easy google range to assess what physicists currently think about the issue.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by zaius137, posted 11-23-2014 9:09 PM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by zaius137, posted 11-24-2014 4:09 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 174 (742799)
11-24-2014 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by zaius137
11-24-2014 4:09 PM


Re: what's already been explained is what it is
NoNukes writes:

And yet even without taking into account any addition to the space time energy tensor at all, GR readily models gravity within the solar system. Surely something is completely wrong with your thinking.

Nothing I have ever posted, in any forum has ever contradicted the complete conformation of GR (as if I could post such a thing).

Great. The point was to counter your complaint that the disjoint between vacuum energy and the cosmological constant meant that physics did not work in the two realms. And I did provide such an example.

quote:
For the highest reasonable elementary particle mass, the Planck mass of 20 micrograms, this density is more than . So there must be a suppression mechanism at work now that reduces the vacuum energy density by at least 120 orders of magnitude.

That's fine. There is no problem finding pointers to the vacuum catastrophe. What I asked was whether you could find some commentary addressing proposed solutions. By the way, how about some bibliography on that cite of yours.

There is a lot, if you google hard enough, too much for me to handle (too deep in the minutia). I think you can say that it is a judgment call for what you can accept as real.

Sigh.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by zaius137, posted 11-24-2014 4:09 PM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by zaius137, posted 11-25-2014 2:44 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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