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Author | Topic: Black Holes Don't Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Son Goku Member (Idle past 32 days) Posts: 1164 From: Ireland Joined: |
(a) The paper I gave you is free to access. (b) I have summarised it before, back in 2012. Guess what I got back then? Sarcastic one-liners. I am not going to summarise it again. Summarising it was apparently too vague for you. However you have also told me you don't want detail. What kind of exposition do you want? A rough guide to the calculation or something like that?
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Percy Member Posts: 19960 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.4
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You're not qualified to pose a "formal objection", but who else besides you is basing their objection on a decades old rough approximation of the standard model?
I was wondering about these summations that you have read that characterize the problem as unanswered, and then I noticed that in a later message (Message 117) you referenced the Wikipedia article on Vacuum Catastrophe. This article states:
First, notice that the discrepancy is given as 107 orders of magnitude, not 170. I do not myself know which figure is correct, but if you're going to claim 170 and then cite a Wikipedia article that claims 107, you might want to explain the difference. Second, notice where it says "a naive application of quantum field theory". Son Goku will have to confirm, but this "naive application" may be what he means when he refers to a toy model from the 1970's.
Son Goku addressed this already in Message 108, explaining that detection of the Higgs is following the same familiar track of progress as other particles:
You continue:
Son Goku already answered this, too, in Message 103 and Message 108:
You conclude:
We know what your opinion is. What we're trying to understand is whether your opinion is based upon anything factual. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Clarify the question about 170 versus 107. Edited by Percy, : Fix typo.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What exactly is your criticism, zaius137 Surely you don't think the 3.8 vs 4.4 represents some kind of discrepancy? Further, your post completely fails as a response to Son Goku's request for a reason for "that you think bet random events being more statistically significant." So exactly what is your point? Because it appears that you really don't have either a clue or a point. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Percy Member Posts: 19960 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Hi Zaius,
Without some sort of explanation from you, I don't think anyone understands why you find those excerpts unconvincing. (I assume you meant unconvincing, that your "very convincing" comment was sarcasm.) --Percy
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Son Goku Member (Idle past 32 days) Posts: 1164 From: Ireland Joined:
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Yes that is what I mean. I'll explain a bit. General Relativity, as most of you know, describes how matter couples to spacetime, that is how it distorts it, which we experience as gravity. General Relativity contains a term (often called the cosmological constant) which describes how Vacuum Energy distorts spacetime. Vaccum Energy being the energy in empty space that is present even when no matter it there. I've said before that in quantum field theory particles are excitation of the field. Another analogy, which is actually more accurate, is that if you think of the quantum field as a spring mattress, particles are vibrations of the springs. Vacuum energy can be thought of as the energy in the field when it is inactive, or in the mattress analogy, the potential energy present in the springs even when they are not vibrating. Now, General Relativity cannot tell you what the Vacuum Energy is as it does not describe matter, it has no idea how much energy is in a field when it is inactive. You have to compute that energy in quantum field theory and then feed it into General Relativity. From cosmological observations it appears that the Vacuum Energy is about one joule per cubic kilometer. That is, every cubic kilometer of empty space contains about a joule, even when no matter is present. It is this Vacuum Energy that, according to General Relativity, is causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate, rather than slow down as it would without it. Now, a good check of the Standard Model would be to insure that it predicts this one joule per cubic kilometer. However this was almost impossible to check in the 1970s as: In the above, it is really (b) that is the problem and the part that even today requires hundreds of hours of supercomputer run-time to calculate. (c) can be done mostly by hand. So to cut it short, in the 1970s people reasoned: The answer gives you Edited by Son Goku, : string -> spring Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given. Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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If you're getting frustrated by an idiot, don't forget that there our others out here reading your stuff and learning a lot and really appreciating it. So thank you.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
Now was that so hard… I knew you could do it.
quote: What Son has just presented will not be a point of contention with me (even though I have some questions). What he has failed to mention is that the field (cosmological constant) is evolving with time in accordance with the BB history. You can calculate a cosmological constant for any epoch, but nothing the Standard model has presented actually demonstrates a realistic modeling for “dark energy” and its variance (also no WIMPS found for dark matter). Why does the dark energy change over time? I am still getting an additional reply ready… Very exciting. Edited by zaius137, : No reason given. Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
quote: I am sarcastic, provoking isn’t it…. Well I guess if the expectation is not met by results, QFT can just adjust a parameter… no big deal. Your a smart participant and this is your field, explain why the expectation might not be met and what parameter might need tweaking. Keep it simple because you are talking to a “zero spinning Bozo living in a field”. Just a quick side point… CERN is a statistical engine, no sharp peaks for particles is necessary. What you can not obtain with a million collisions you can obtain with ten trillion collisions. I do have a rudimentary understanding of statistical analysis as used in computational programing (a past life). Statistics can smear results that are not separated by significant deviations (that may be an objective in some models). That is just the nature of the beast, although it also depends on the statistical modeling. This might be an explanation why Fermilab was not particularly interested in the 125GeV mass. The claim was at the time that there “was a lot going on there”. I remember the reports well as I followed all the blogs with great interest. Just be prepared that one day this entire find might come to nought.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
quote: You need to read more my friend. It is somewhat less than a TOE. quote: I take the “naive” application to mean an application of QFT to the large scale universe and gravity. Stars are not excitations of universal fields, as Son would have it. Imagine what a proof for star formation or black hole formation would look like from the standard model (QFT). You started this thread on a outrageous view developed from the standard model. Does anyone believe black holes don’t exist? If they do not come about in stars, how could there be so many in the universe? quote: The first assumption of the particle/field principle is that the decays actually reflect a particle (this my be beyond scientific proof). Maybe the decay products that are observed are not indicative of a particle at all. Furthermore, these decays are assumed to be a zero spin boson in the case of a Higgs, that assumption is yet to be proved first, then the Higgs needs to be shown to impart mass to gage bosons. There is no other particle that acts like a Higgs is supposed to act, this is new ground. Yet the particle detected is still just another decay at this point, some research says this is a Higgs by statistical conformation, skeptics maintain the Higgs could still be a doublet impostor. If it is a Higgs, what does it answer, the mass it does explain seems arbitrary to the particle. How many other mechanisms are required to explain the occurrence of mass of normal matter and black hole mass? The Higgs does not answer the preceding questions at all. You might say, well you believe in black holes right, they can not be seen directly. This may be true, but black holes do not just blink into and out of existence (too fast to observe) that to me is nonsense. quote: To my frustration we have not reached the meat of this discussion… Yet.
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Son Goku Member (Idle past 32 days) Posts: 1164 From: Ireland Joined:
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It isn't, the cosmological constant is constant in time and space according to observations, hence the reason it is called a constant.
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Son Goku Member (Idle past 32 days) Posts: 1164 From: Ireland Joined:
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It can't be tweaked. If the Higgs decays are not observed the standard model is false, no adjustment of its parameters to avoid the Breit-Wigner profiles for decays (these are the humps near 125GeV) would be possible. The location of the hump can be adjusted, but not its presence, and the location is not completely free to vary, it can only be located before 247GeV, i.e. the Higgs must be lighter than this and its decays must be present at detectable rates.
Except that every statistical analysis makes that seem more and more unlikely. The possibility of a Higgs is now estimated at 99.99% Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 19960 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.4
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You need only tell me where to read. You said it isn't you "posing a formal objection to a disagreement of predicted vacuum energy to apparent vacuum energy." If you're actually taking your lead from someone else, who is it besides you who is suggesting that the "vacuum catastrophe" that is based upon a decades old rough approximation of the standard model has any current legitimacy?
I don't understand this shift from vacuum energy to the formation of stars and black holes? Are you dropping your claim that the standard model's predicted vacuum energy value is off by over a hundred orders of magnitude?
The point of the research briefly described in Message 1 wasn't that black holes don't exist, but that we may be mistaken about their true nature. As I summarized at the time, "Their research supports Stephen Hawking's recent announcement that black holes are actually grey holes with a chaotic and very hot event horizon from which energy escapes. Hawking suggests a changing event horizon subject to quantum fluctuations inside the black hole, a sort of 'grey area,' hence the term grey hole."
No one minds if you find the current evidence for QFT or the Higgs or whatever unconvincing. That's your right. You decide what evidence and how much will convince you. But persuading other people that they should also find the evidence unconvincing is a significant challenge that would be more effective if it didn't include things like invalid objections based upon approximations from nearly a half century ago.
No one thinks that an implication of QFT is that black holes blink into and out of existence. You seem to feel that progress toward the "meat of this discussion" has been tortuous, so could I suggest that statements like this about black holes and previously about vacuum energy are a significant distraction. As the source of these distractions it is within your power to prevent them from happening. --Percy
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
quote: Not that simple… Originally the cosmological constant was a contribution of space itself to pose a balance in the universe. When the constant was assumed to be a contribution of energy then things changed. If the volume of the universe is increasing, dark energy must also increase. Since the evolution of the universe is more complex, a deceleration then a acceleration, the energy contribution has changed from the past epoch to the present one, that from vacuum energy.
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Son Goku Member (Idle past 32 days) Posts: 1164 From: Ireland Joined: |
The cosmological constant is an energy density and observational studies show that energy density is constant in time and space. A change in volume does not imply a change in an energy density. Dark Energy can increase without the energy density increasing.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
You just missed the main point, the evolution of the balance between vacuum energy and matter has changed over time (main point). Either matter is decreasing or vacuum energy is increasing. I would go with the latter.
You only imply a local constant… not the observed one.
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